I was, I admit, staunchly trying to find a way to incorporate either Navarre or Naples
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
What happens to Isabella of Aragon? Nunnery? And Eleanor of Portugal is better of marrying Manuel, he is the last Aviz man after John.
Am a little confused here, whom inherits after Arthur I in 1541, is it Ferdinand? Should he not have a title then?
Most likely, as she would be replaced by her niece as heiress...
Yup.... Ferdinand inherits the throne after his father, he was the previous Duke of York but seeing that his older brother passes away before him he becomes the prince of Wales and eventually the king of England
Then what happens to Manuel? He is a pretty dangerous guy in the sense he is last Aviz man alive.
Not particularly, he might be the last man but Portugal had male-preference succession, so Isabella II would be ahead of him
Extremely unlikely to happen as John II would not find interesting that match plus he reputed Manuel to be an idiot…
He would continue to live if John II still believed him to be an idiot, else he would follow the fate of his brothers and brother-in-law
Princess Charlotte of Wales Lives...
Queen Charlotte I (1796-1867)*Died, Reign (1830-1867)- Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Prince Consort and Duke of Kendal
Queen Charlotte I (1796-1867)*Died, Reign (1830-1867)- Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Prince Consort and Duke of Kendal
- King George V (1817-1894), Reign (1867-1894)- Princess Pauline of Saxe-Altenburg
- Charlotte, The Princess Royal (1819-1878)- Prince William of The Netherlands (OTL William III)
- Princess Frederica (1820-1904)-Ernst II, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
- Prince Leopold, Duke of York (1823-1870)- Princess Caroline Mariane of Mecklenburg-Strelitz
- Prince William, Duke of Albany (1825-1847)- Never Married
- Prince Henry, Duke of Sussex (1829-1913)- Princess Adelheid of Hohenlohe-Langenburg
- Princess Augusta [Alexandra Nikolaeva] (1833-1920)- Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaevich of Russia
she seems a far lower match than Leopold would've accepted. Given how for Ernst he wanted the guy to marry a Russian grand duchess or at least...somebody important
not sure why Friederike is taken but she'd likely get paired with Alexander II rather than her sister marrying one of his younger brothers. A younger brother I would point out that, OTL, they had problems finding a wife for due to his reputation as a womanizer
doubt Charlotte would split the dukedoms of York and Albany like this
given Charlotte's personal dislike for the Sussexes (the man showed up to her namesake grandma's funeral with his bastards in tow, despite being expressly prohibited from doing so) I don't see her naming a son to the title
As far as I know Portugal had something akin to a semi-salic law... This is perhaps the reason why the house of Braganza came to the throne after the fall of the house of Habsburgs in Portugal..... Moreover, if Portugal had male preference then Manuel's granddaughter Maria Manuela would have been preferred over his son (and a literal monk) in succession.
I really do not think that John would have Manuel follow the same fate as his brothers.... Moreover, Manuel was only 15 when Diego died and John II is said to have regarded Manuel as his son (he killed the boy's brothers after all)..... And Manuel was definitely not the idiot John II believed him to be
She would have been queen if she had not predeceased her father. Don Carlos would have been king as the senior heir if he had not predeceased his cousin. The cardinal king only became king because Maria Manuela’s line was extinct
Portugal had male preference: both Joanna (sister of John II) and Maria Manuela had the title of Princess of Portugal as heiresses presumptive before the birth of their brothers and evidently you have forgotten who not only Maria Manuela died well before Sebastian’s birth but who her only child also died childless well before his cousin Sebastian so I can not see how her line could inherit ahead of Cardinal Henry when Sebastian was the last living descendant of John III,
Manuel was not seen as a danger by John, that was the only reason for which he survived to John’s purges…
Yes he was not, but he lived only because John believed him to be an idiot and would die as soon John II recognized his mistake
I think if Elizabeth of France married Don Carlos and presumably if he had a better relationship with Philip II, I think Philip would let Portugal take the OTL Philippines since he knew that Sebastian was not likely to have any issues and there are issues in the discovery of the OTL Philippines as Portuguese landings there and Philip II would likely do everything so that his son's succession in Portugal will happen which means likely RIP Sebastian without issue as in OTL.
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Kings of France of the House of Bourbon
August 2, 1589 - May 14, 1610 : Henri IV (December 13, 1553 - May 14, 1610)
May 14, 1610 - May 14, 1633: Louis XIII (September 27, 1601 - May 14, 1633)
May 14, 1633 - September 1st, 1715: Louis XIV (September 5, 1638 - September 1st, 1715)
September 1st, 1715 - December 15, 1727 : Louis XV (November 1, 1661 - December 15, 1727)
December 15, 1727 - December 27, 1744 : Louis XVI (August 6, 1682 - December 27, 1744)
December 27, 1744 - May 10, 1774 : Louis XVII (February 15, 1710 - May 10, 1774)
May 10, 1774 - January 17, 1812 : Louis XVIII (September 4, 1729 - January 17, 1812)
January 17, 1812 - September 20, 1833: Louis XIX (August 23, 1754 - September 20, 1833)
September 20, 1833 - August 10, 1845 : Louis XX (March 27, 1785 - August 10, 1845)
August 10, 1845 - April 7, 1880 : Charles X (July 23, 1821 - April 7, 1880)
April 7, 1880 - October 9, 1918 : Henri V (January 21, 1849 - October 9, 1918)
October 9, 1918 - August 14, 1955 : Charles XI (February 11, 1876 - August 14, 1955)
August 14, 1955 - December 31, 1989 : Charles XII (December 17, 1900 - December 31, 1989)
December 31, 1989 : Henri VI (born on March 25, 1923)
Heir to the throne: Charles, Dauphin of France (born on June 18, 1942)
So, this one's a bit weird to explain...
It started with me wanting to remove the 1711-1712 smallpox epidemic in France and determine the possible length of the Grand Dauphin and Petit Dauphin's reign had they lived longer. To simulate their lifespan, I based myself on their closest relatives: the Grand Dauphin was given the lifespan of his bastard half-brother the Duke of Maine, while the Petit Dauphin got the same lifespan as his brother Philippe V of Spain.
This made them Louis XV and Louis XVI in this ATL. OTL Louis XV meanwhile became ATL Louis XVII and kept his lifespan.
ATL Louis XVIII was given the same birthdate as the OTL son of Louis XV, but he has the lifespan of one of his bastard half-brothers (Philippe de Narbonne-Lara).
ATL Louis XIX has the same birthdate of OTL Louis XVI but was given the lifespan of his brother Charles X.
And then we come to ATL Louis XX... And this is where I kinda went a bit nuts. Not necessarilly with him as I simply gave him the same death date as that of Karl-Wilhelm Naundorff, who claimed to be a surviving OTL Louis XVII. But for the ones that came after, I somewhat went wild...
I took a look at Naundorff's descendants and then did a bit of statistics to see who lived the longest and who fathered children the earliest... The names are also based on the ones used by the family, mostly because I kinda didn't want to keep using Louis as a regnal name (otherwise we'd be at Louis XXV here...). The point is that's how I created the Kings that go from Charles X to Henri VI, and that's also how I got the Dauphin that I mention at the end.
Now this list probably wouldn't be up to date for 2024 in the ATL, even if the idea of a 101 year old king with an 82 year old heir to the throne is kinda funny...
August 2, 1589 - May 14, 1610 : Henri IV (December 13, 1553 - May 14, 1610)
May 14, 1610 - May 14, 1633: Louis XIII (September 27, 1601 - May 14, 1633)
May 14, 1633 - September 1st, 1715: Louis XIV (September 5, 1638 - September 1st, 1715)
September 1st, 1715 - December 15, 1727 : Louis XV (November 1, 1661 - December 15, 1727)
December 15, 1727 - December 27, 1744 : Louis XVI (August 6, 1682 - December 27, 1744)
December 27, 1744 - May 10, 1774 : Louis XVII (February 15, 1710 - May 10, 1774)
May 10, 1774 - January 17, 1812 : Louis XVIII (September 4, 1729 - January 17, 1812)
January 17, 1812 - September 20, 1833: Louis XIX (August 23, 1754 - September 20, 1833)
September 20, 1833 - August 10, 1845 : Louis XX (March 27, 1785 - August 10, 1845)
August 10, 1845 - April 7, 1880 : Charles X (July 23, 1821 - April 7, 1880)
April 7, 1880 - October 9, 1918 : Henri V (January 21, 1849 - October 9, 1918)
October 9, 1918 - August 14, 1955 : Charles XI (February 11, 1876 - August 14, 1955)
August 14, 1955 - December 31, 1989 : Charles XII (December 17, 1900 - December 31, 1989)
December 31, 1989 : Henri VI (born on March 25, 1923)
Heir to the throne: Charles, Dauphin of France (born on June 18, 1942)
So, this one's a bit weird to explain...
It started with me wanting to remove the 1711-1712 smallpox epidemic in France and determine the possible length of the Grand Dauphin and Petit Dauphin's reign had they lived longer. To simulate their lifespan, I based myself on their closest relatives: the Grand Dauphin was given the lifespan of his bastard half-brother the Duke of Maine, while the Petit Dauphin got the same lifespan as his brother Philippe V of Spain.
This made them Louis XV and Louis XVI in this ATL. OTL Louis XV meanwhile became ATL Louis XVII and kept his lifespan.
ATL Louis XVIII was given the same birthdate as the OTL son of Louis XV, but he has the lifespan of one of his bastard half-brothers (Philippe de Narbonne-Lara).
ATL Louis XIX has the same birthdate of OTL Louis XVI but was given the lifespan of his brother Charles X.
And then we come to ATL Louis XX... And this is where I kinda went a bit nuts. Not necessarilly with him as I simply gave him the same death date as that of Karl-Wilhelm Naundorff, who claimed to be a surviving OTL Louis XVII. But for the ones that came after, I somewhat went wild...
I took a look at Naundorff's descendants and then did a bit of statistics to see who lived the longest and who fathered children the earliest... The names are also based on the ones used by the family, mostly because I kinda didn't want to keep using Louis as a regnal name (otherwise we'd be at Louis XXV here...). The point is that's how I created the Kings that go from Charles X to Henri VI, and that's also how I got the Dauphin that I mention at the end.
Now this list probably wouldn't be up to date for 2024 in the ATL, even if the idea of a 101 year old king with an 82 year old heir to the throne is kinda funny...
given the dauphin was the child of double first cousins, I honestly don't see him living past 1720
except that Narbonne was born in 1755 and he was KIA, so not exactly a "natural" end to his life. But if we look at the Demi-Louis, 1741-1814, so take off 12years for his half-brother's age and it brings you to 1802.
given that "Louis XX" would marry Maria Amelia of Naples here, I'd suggest moving "Charles X" birthyear to the first decade of the 1800s
but otherwise, its an interesting tree
A Different Anglo-Burgundian Union (probably ASB tho):
James I, King of England, France, Scotland & Ireland (1566-1621[1]) m: 1589 Anna of Denmark (1574-1619)
[2] Henri IV escapes assassination, but still dies of natural causes, avoiding the disastrous Franco-Spanish matches of 1615
[3] to all those who would point out that England would pass to Elizabeth and not Charles, I would contest that while England had no problem accepting a woman as ruler, the last three instances had all been in a case where there was no other male heir in the direct line. While Scotland had accepted Mary, Queen of Scots, there were no other legitimate male Stuarts. In neither instance was the succession law codified to allow female succession- contrary to popular belief, the Third Succession Act so often waved around as "legitimating" Jane Grey's succession makes no provision for Jane (or her mother, or grandmother's line), since article four and five directly contradict this:
[4] Felipe III keeps his promise about the Netherlands becoming the dowry of his daughter to marry Charles (Felipe IV and Olivares weren't so keen on the idea). Particularly for a younger daughter marrying a sovereign. Here, with the elder daughter marrying a second son, it seems "more appropriate".
Anne and Charles have a...happy marriage (at least happier than hers was OTL), and when he becomes king of England, they part company amicably, him leaving her to serve as viceroy in the Netherlands rather than bringing a queen that's both Catholic and Spanish, to England. In fact, Anne's first visit to London will be for her son's wedding. She doesn't stay long though, more due to the fact that Dowager Queen Elizabeth insists on precedence over her sister-in-law
[5] godson of the Archduke Albert
[6] named for Isabel Clara Eugenia
@isabella @Nuraghe @HortenseMancini @The Gybson Boy @eliamartin65 @BlueFlowwer @FalconHonour
James I, King of England, France, Scotland & Ireland (1566-1621[1]) m: 1589 Anna of Denmark (1574-1619)
Henry IX, King of England, France, Scotland & Ireland [1621-1625] (1594-1625) m: 1615 [2] Élisabeth de France (b.1600)
Elizabeth (1616-1624)
Henry X, King of England, France, Scotland & Ireland [1625-1636] (1619-1636)
Anne (1621)
Margaret (1623-1623)
Stillborn Son (1624)
Elizabeth [3] (b.1625) m: 1640 Charles Albert, Prince of Wales (b.1621)
Elizabeth (b.1596) m: 1613 Friedrich V, Elector Palatine of the Rhine (b.1596)
as OTL
Margaret (1598-1600)
Charles I, King of England, France, Scotland & Ireland [from 1636 [3]] (b.1600) m: 1615 Anna of Spain, Lady of the Netherlands [4] (b.1601)
Stillborn Daughter (1618)
Charles Albert [5], Prince of Wales (b.1621) m: 1640 Elizabeth of England (b.1625)
Philip, Duke of York & Brabant (b.1624)
Henry, Duke of Gloucester & Luxemburg (1626-1634)
Anne (b.1628)
Isabella [6] (b.1630)
Margaret (b.1631)
James, Duke of Clarence & Flanders (b.1635)
Robert, Duke of Kintyre & Lorne (1602-1602)
Mary (1605-1607)
Sophia (1606)
[1] James I and Felipe III swap death dates[2] Henri IV escapes assassination, but still dies of natural causes, avoiding the disastrous Franco-Spanish matches of 1615
[3] to all those who would point out that England would pass to Elizabeth and not Charles, I would contest that while England had no problem accepting a woman as ruler, the last three instances had all been in a case where there was no other male heir in the direct line. While Scotland had accepted Mary, Queen of Scots, there were no other legitimate male Stuarts. In neither instance was the succession law codified to allow female succession- contrary to popular belief, the Third Succession Act so often waved around as "legitimating" Jane Grey's succession makes no provision for Jane (or her mother, or grandmother's line), since article four and five directly contradict this:
Given that Henry X's sister, Elizabeth, would be all of 11yo when she becomes queen, I doubt anyone wants a regency that lasts another eight years. Unless Henry X himself passes legislation entailing the succession to his sister (and why would he?)
[4] Felipe III keeps his promise about the Netherlands becoming the dowry of his daughter to marry Charles (Felipe IV and Olivares weren't so keen on the idea). Particularly for a younger daughter marrying a sovereign. Here, with the elder daughter marrying a second son, it seems "more appropriate".
Anne and Charles have a...happy marriage (at least happier than hers was OTL), and when he becomes king of England, they part company amicably, him leaving her to serve as viceroy in the Netherlands rather than bringing a queen that's both Catholic and Spanish, to England. In fact, Anne's first visit to London will be for her son's wedding. She doesn't stay long though, more due to the fact that Dowager Queen Elizabeth insists on precedence over her sister-in-law
[5] godson of the Archduke Albert
[6] named for Isabel Clara Eugenia
@isabella @Nuraghe @HortenseMancini @The Gybson Boy @eliamartin65 @BlueFlowwer @FalconHonour
Little Elizabeth could inherit England but not Scotland who will go to Charles (as it follow semi-Salic law), but Elizabeth of France will end in Savoy not in England.
very interesting tree, although the question remains of how Charles intends to manage the ex Spanish Netherlands and the religious tensions ( because I honestly think that the English elite will want to turn the region into a bastion of Protestantism and trample on the rights of the local population ( similar to that that the colonists expected it to happen with Quebec in Otl ) that I honestly don't know how happy he would be to be under a pseudo-heretical sovereign and friend of the Dutch ( i.e. those who until a few years earlier were the number one enemies ), furthermore a Habsburg wife means that Charles actually accepted some agreement to protect his papists ( not just the Burgundian ones, who also the rest..... which gives rise to another enormous problem....... Ireland ) it is more likely that in the long run Burgundy will break away with a cadet branch or otherwise Charles will have to deal with a series of crises that could dwarf the English civil war of Otl, but in the fortuitous event that he wins it means that he can dictate the rules so we will probably see a a kind of compromise which in the long run can become a policy of religious tolerance, and honestly I'm not even considering the possibilities of diplomatic influence that this union can cause or its siding in 30YW ( honestly I find it difficult to believe that Charles will remain neutral, it is more likely that he will push to obtain gains for himself, but at the same time favor relatives ( even those by marriage ) that it is the right scenario to see the confessional subdivision project of the HRE conceived by the Habsburgs come to fruition ?, because technically Charles' nephews would once again be recognized as imperial princes and even elevated in rank ( although I always imagined Ruprecht more in the role than his brothers ), which would be pleasing to the London court
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for argument's sake the duke of Savoy saw his Medici betrothal go through
could be why Anne is designated as the "Lady of the Netherlands" with Charles as consort (rather than equal Lord of the Netherlands- like Albert and Isabella). That being said, I definitely think he'd have very different experiences in the Netherlands than OTL. No friendship with Buckingham. No desperately trying to get his dad's approval by slavishly following his policies, and even his hero worship of his brother might turn into something less "idolatrous". Added to that, in 1636, he's pretty much an "unknown" quantity when he comes to England. Not unknown as in nobody's seen or heard what he's been doing, but he doesn't have a decade of gaffes and failures (or the personal rule) to discredit him to the English. And the different experiences in Brussels - perhaps Albert and Isabella take he and Anne under their wing as "the children we never had"- might even make him into a "better" statesman than OTL, given how I'm not sure how much James ever bothered to educate Charles