Karl Retakes The Hungarian Throne

[chris N]

In 1920 Karl Hapsburg made the first attempt to retake the Hungarian throne. He was promised that if he was successful that France would immediately offer formal diplotic support to the new regime a and block any attempts by otside powers to force him off the throne. He however, made the mistake of not arriving with armed Hungarian supporters in Budapest.
Lets say that he did not make that mistake but instead arrive in the city with enough armed personnel to sieze the Royal palace and arrest the Regent. Karl then had control of the goverment and the military. His supports rallied to him and France quickly offer diplomatic reconigation of the newly restored monarchy quickly followed by Great Britain
Might not this have altered the balance of power in the area and altered the history. It is far more likely that Karl would have lived much longer and possibly have even regained the Austrian throne as the Socialist were reoved from power in Austria by the more rightwinged Fatherland Front.
It is even likely that Karl might secretly support efforts in Germay tomake sure that Hitler never gained power and the monarchist made gains in Germay.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Were there any Hungarians ready to fight for him though, sure it was a time of confusion, the Romanians had just left, but still I think the reason Karl failed was that the Hungarians were not ready for a foreign monarch now that they were separated from Austria. And even if many Magyars had favored the double monarchy, now that the war was over they just wanted to focus on Hungary, and let the Western part of the old empire go their own way.

 

[chris N]

According to the recent book The Uncrowned Monarch( which is the story of Otto Hapsburg) Karl did have his supports in Hungary that would have been willing to fight for him. Unfortunately Karl took the advice of an idot Hungarian that said that all he had to do was to show up. What is ironic is the man who proclaimed himself regent fro Karl had in 1918 come before Karl an sworn an oath of loyaly to the Hapsburgs. Karl had not sent for the admiral or required him to swear the oath. It seemed that once he acquired the power he didn't want to turn it over to Karl.

 

[Herr Frage]

Hmm, I concede that Britain and French support would let him secure Hungary and he was a popular enough figure that he would likely prove an effective monarch.

However it is hard to see the Ausrians reuniting with Hungary. I could see the Republic refusing to recognize Karl's rule into the Great Powers pressured it. Yuogoslavia might prove intractable on the matter.

Mussolini wouls strangely I think become an ally. Revisionism would still be a force in Hungary and Yuogslavia the easiest target. The blatnat Serbian favoritism hardly made Belgrade popular with non Serb subjects or overseas. Mussolini might align weith a Habsburg Hungary for a little Balkan War to "correct" the border. I could see Britain and France supporting such a move. PArticularly if it placed the two regimes further from Hitler, Il Duce seeing no need and Karl being able to increase Hungarian power and prestiege to assuage any ProNazi nationalists.

Austria would likely refuse a Personal Union, however under the right circumstances they might accept anothjer Habsburg claimant. One of those being a decree that the two crowns never again be joined.

King Karl would absolutely oppose Hitler, the man was a rabid antiHabsuburg.

 

[chris N]

I would agree that there was little chance that Austria in 1920 would unite with Hungary under the leadership of Karl. However, things might have changed in the early 1930's once the Austrian Fatherland Front had replaced the Socialist in Power. They might verywell have seen Karl as the solution to their problem as he was popular in both Austria and Hungary.
It is more likely that if Karl had won the throne he would have lived a lot longer in the climate of Hungary rather than in the Portugese islands.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I would agree that there was little chance that Austria in 1920 would unite with Hungary under the leadership of Karl. However, things might have changed in the early 1930's once the Austrian Fatherland Front had replaced the Socialist in Power.

If, due to Anglo-French pressure, a Czechoslovakian-Romanian-Yugoslav coalition doesn't overthrow him in 1920, then it will do it as soon as he tries to bring back the Dual Monarchy.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

And if Karl already is king of Hungary I doubt the Austrians would want him, they wouldn't like to be ruled by Magyars. Agree that the neighbors would see any attempt to unite Hungary and Austria again as a aggression against their sovereignty.

 

[chris N]

I think that much would depend upon how Karl acted as the King of Hungary. If he was a good neighbor then I doubt that the Czechs,Romanians and Yugoslavs would be able to act. Also I think that one would have to also look at what the situtation was in Europe.
If the Nazi's were still trying to sieze power then I think that that alters the situtation. Karl was popular in Austria even when he left it in 1918 and it need to be remenbered that he never renouced the throne. If Hitler was the same threat then I could see the Fatherland Front once again turning to Karl as someone who could unify the country.
There are two cards that Karl could play to stop an invasion by the countries that you named- Italy. Mussolini would be more than eager to help Hungary in a war with Yugoslavia. Poland is another. The Poish connection to the Hapsburgs was warm. Karls relatives lived in Poland and served in the Polish Army. In addition two of them were married to Polish nobility. The Poles would cause the Czech's to hesitate to start a war and would discourage the Romanians from one two.

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
The Poles did not cause the Czechoslovaks to hesitate in OTL, where they geared for war. Though any Polish action would alienate Poles from Romanians.

If France wants Karl on Hungarian throne it needs to convince its eastern allies first- and convince them with something- at least a border guarantee or something. And why should France spend capital on behalf of a single man?

 

[danielbd]

I doubt the Poles would risk damaging relations with Romania only to bring back the Habsburgs. Romania was Poland's only regional ally against the USSR, which was a huge threat to the Polish state.
I don't see how a Habsburg ruled Hungary and/or Austria could benefit them enough to jeopardise an alliance which was deemed crucial at the time. The "cordon sanitaire" was deemed important to France and England also, so i doubt they would help isolate Romania and other states in the region for the supposed benefit of Hungary.

 

[chris N]

Ah but Poland's relations were very good with the Hungarian state. The connection goes back much futher in time to when the Ottomans threaten europe with invasion.
I think that Poland could discourage the Romanians from invading Hungary just because Karl retook the throne. It is much more likely that any differences between Hungary and Romania could be resolved peacefully under Karl but it would be far more likely that an armed confict or outside intervention would come about if theri was a war.
The only parties that would gain by any conflict would be the Nazi's in Germany and the Soviet Union.

 

[Gladi]

Ah but Poland's relations were very good with the Hungarian state. The connection goes back much futher in time to when the Ottomans threaten europe with invasion.
I think that Poland could discourage the Romanians from invading Hungary just because Karl retook the throne. It is much more likely that any differences between Hungary and Romania could be resolved peacefully under Karl but it would be far more likely that an armed confict or outside intervention would come about if theri was a war.
The only parties that would gain by any conflict would be the Nazi's in Germany and the Soviet Union.

How would Poland discourage Romania? What does it have to offer besides threats of force?

Kingdom of Hungary is a threat to all its' neighbours- for all its' neighbours posses land rightfully belonging to KoH.

 

[danielbd]

The supposed affinity of Poles towards Hungarians does not have any relevance. Foreign policy is not affected by these things.
Relations were strained between Hungary and the Little Entente and any sign of Habsburg restoration would be viewed as the first step towards the recovery of the monarchy's former territories. To realize the gravity of the situation... Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia had sent OTL messages during Karl's attempted coup saying that any restoration would result in a casus beli. During the second attempt at restoration, Romania joined in and also said that any move would constitute a casus beli. The Czechs even mobilised forces during these second attempt and issued an ultimatum. So no... the entire Little Entente was so set on blocking a restoration that not even a Polish declaration of war would make them back down.

And... you still haven't given me a real reason for the Poles to do such things. The Poles would not risk an international conflict so they can be better friends with Hungary. Besides... iirc relations between Horthy's Hungary and Poland were close, seems as both were ruled by conservative militaristic regimes and a monarchy would, if anything, complicate things.

 

[danielbd]

How would Poland discourage Romania? What does it have to offer besides threats of force?

Kingdom of Hungary is a threat to all its' neighbours- for all its' neighbours posses land rightfully belonging to KoH.

Rightfully belonging? Excuse me?

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Ah but Poland's relations were very good with the Hungarian state. The connection goes back much futher in time to when the Ottomans threaten europe with invasion.
I think that Poland could discourage the Romanians from invading Hungary just because Karl retook the throne. It is much more likely that any differences between Hungary and Romania could be resolved peacefully under Karl but it would be far more likely that an armed confict or outside intervention would come about if theri was a war.

Romania was a far more useful ally to Poland than Hungary. It was stronger and the common enemy (Bolshevik Russia rather than Czechoslovakia) was a more dangerous one.

According to wiki both attempts were made in 1921. Poland had just ended a war with Russia and was engaged in a dispute with Lithuania. I don't see them going to war with Czechoslovakia over the Habsburgs. The most they can achieve is to convince the Romanians to stay out, which is not enough to save Charles.

A worst case scenario for Hungary would be if even Austria joined the invasion. Their reasons would be to guarantee the republic and make sure it obtains the entire Burgenland.

The only parties that would gain by any conflict would be the Nazi's in Germany and the Soviet Union.

The Nazis? This is 1921. Mussolini wasn't even in power yet.

 

[chris N]

As far as I recall the first attempt at the restoration took place in late 1920. According to information that has tome to light the French Govt asured Karl that if he was successful at regaining the throne he would receive diplomatic recognition from France as the legimate government of Hungary. I have little doubt that Great Britain would follow suite. None of the little Entente poweres were in any condition to start a war that might result in the major powers taking military and economic actions against said powers. A blockade might very well bring down all of the offending parties.
Regarding Yugoslavia the government of Italy was in an expanist mood and might very well have used the occassion of Romania attacking Hungary to invade that country. Czechoslovkia had just used the Polish -Russian conflict to secure all of the Teschen territory thus causing a massive reputure in any co-operation between the two countries. Thus the Pole would have been more than willing to help the Hungarians out.
I will admit that the relations between Poland and Romania were quite good but then so were the relations between Poland and Hungary. In the Future it will be Poland that helps Romania to develope it fighter plane.
The redrawing of the borders at the Paris Peace talks were without a doubt the reason that so many of the Balkan states had a gruge against one another. I have little dobt that the borders that existed prior to WWI between Romania and Hungary left too many ethnic Romanians in Hungary but the land grab after the first World war did the reverse leaving too many large minorities in countries that they had no desire to be part of.
This was without a doubt the fault of too many leaders who had a desire to punish the losers and not admit their own failures to prevent the war.

 

[Gladi]

Rightfully belonging? Excuse me?

Kingdom of Hungary is not just modern Magyarszag. While Kingdom of Hungary can acknowledge that its historic lands now belong to other peoples, they will always be its' historic lands. Interwar Kingdom of Hungary was always striving to regain its' lost territory.

Now add Karl. He ruled all those territories. He was king of all those Slovaks, Austrians, Romanians, Croats and Serbs. St. Stephen's crown on his head, or on head of any of his descendants- that is war waiting to happen.

None of the little Entente poweres were in any condition to start a war that might result in the major powers taking military and economic actions against said powers. A blockade might very well bring down all of the offending parties.

Why should France and Britain move against KoSCS, Romania and Czechoslovakia. What will they get? Hungary? What is so wonderfull about Hungary so as to lose three countries, each larger than Hungary?

 

[danielbd]

As far as I recall the first attempt at the restoration took place in late 1920. According to information that has tome to light the French Govt asured Karl that if he was successful at regaining the throne he would receive diplomatic recognition from France as the legimate government of Hungary. I have little doubt that Great Britain would follow suite. None of the little Entente poweres were in any condition to start a war that might result in the major powers taking military and economic actions against said powers. A blockade might very well bring down all of the offending parties.
Regarding Yugoslavia the government of Italy was in an expanist mood and might very well have used the occassion of Romania attacking Hungary to invade that country. Czechoslovkia had just used the Polish -Russian conflict to secure all of the Teschen territory thus causing a massive reputure in any co-operation between the two countries. Thus the Pole would have been more than willing to help the Hungarians out.
I will admit that the relations between Poland and Romania were quite good but then so were the relations between Poland and Hungary. In the Future it will be Poland that helps Romania to develope it fighter plane.
The redrawing of the borders at the Paris Peace talks were without a doubt the reason that so many of the Balkan states had a gruge against one another. I have little dobt that the borders that existed prior to WWI between Romania and Hungary left too many ethnic Romanians in Hungary but the land grab after the first World war did the reverse leaving too many large minorities in countries that they had no desire to be part of.
This was without a doubt the fault of too many leaders who had a desire to punish the losers and not admit their own failures to prevent the war.

The French and British did not intervene in ANY way when Germany broke international treaties, Germany a state that threatened France directly, one that could dominate the continent.... yet you are suggesting that France, Romania's traditional ally and Western benefactor at that time, as well as one having close ties with Czechoslovakia and Serbia, would take action against Romania and it's allies on behalf of a monarchy they had just defeated in a world war? I believe what you said, that some French ministers supported Karl, but then again the French say a lot of things.

Regarding the fairness of the peace treaty... it was unjust from an ethnic point of view, but it was a lot less unjust than the status quo ante. Anyway, i am not a big fan of nation-states myself..... Someone will always get discriminated at some point, no matter how you draw the map.

To Gladi:
I understand now what you meant, from Karl's point of view he indeed was the legitimate rule of all the Crown of St. Stephen, but one can look at it in a number of ways, especially considering how much the nature of the Kingdom had changed.

 

[chris N]

It was not just some ministers of France but the PREMIER of France who Stated the if Karl was to retake the throne in the first attempt that FRANCE would support him totally! This only was true during the first attempt.

 

[chris N]

It needs to be stated that in 1920 the victorious Entente powers had far more clot over countries such as Yugoslavia, Romania and Czechoslovkia. In many of the cases those countries had either not existed or had been severly damaged by the war. The allied powers thus had the economic as well as the military power to enforce their decisions.