Just how loyal were the Southern United States following the ACW?

...during Reconstruction and afterwards? I know about the Ten Percent Plan and the Radical Republicans' Fifty Percent Plan, but I'm not too trusting of any Southern vote between 1865-1877.

Just how loyal were the Southern States, really? If, say, President Grant coughed up his own lungs and liver during the Centennial and then a chandelier fell on every member of the cabinet, would Southern states take the opportunity to secede again, would they cooperate fully with Federal authorities to restore order, or would they just quietly stick to themselves and merely act autonomously but still be technically part of the Union?
 
Last edited:
The South was never going to rise again. Ever.
Sure, but would they give they give their all to the Federal government in the 1870s or 1880s or what-have-you if everything went to hell for some odd reason or another? I mean, all I'm asking is how much would they contribute compared to how much they could contribute in the event of emergency.
 
Lincoln's 10% Loyalty Oath plan was meant, not only to just get the states back in ASAP, but also to show a bit of forgiveness and understanding to those who seceded because of him. Sort of gaining their faith in the fact that he is NOT a tyrant and dictator like they thought. His assassination changed all that.

The Wade-Davis Bill (the 50% IRONCLAD Loyalty Oath) was the Congressional attempt to punish the south, AND rub their noses in it. The Ironclad oath meant only those who had ALWAYS been loyal to the Union could take it. Well, that eliminates 90% of the southern whites, men and women (and at the time the women were treated little better than children and didn't have the right to vote, so they were summarily ignored anyway). That left the Freedmen, the Carpetbaggers (northerners looking for a quick buck, some cheap land, or a pretty lady), and Scallywags (southerners who never supported the CSA, or feigned it until they could collaborate with the Yanks).

Johnson's Amnesty Plan was a mix of the two, with a 50% loyalty oath, but not ironclad. That was pretty much all he did, because Congress by this time was almost soley Republican, and they decided that the southern congressmen weren't lawful, and were thus barred from Sitting. This way, the Republican dominated congress simply overrode Johnson's Vetoes (of which there were many) and that's how we got the Military Reconstruction Act, the Commander of the Army Act, and the Civil Rights Act of 1875, and so forth. Johnson had zip to do with them. Hell, the Commander of the Army Act was passed so that Johnson couldn't be Commander in Chief (effectively).

The one thing that really hamstrung any future southern rebellion was the fact that they had to repudiate their state debts. In essense, any amount of Reb money that was used to service the CSA in ANY WAY, including all the bonds, and I.O.U.s, was taken and trashed. So John T. Reb the friendly farmer who just thought he'd buy up $100 bond for a $112 return in a couple years lost not only his savings of $100 but was one of those guys who couldn't take the Ironclad oath. This is the main reason (seconded by the damaged done in the war) that the southern states went from the Wealthiest States in the Union to the Poorest States in the Union (even today!). Alabama (who sent the most people per capita to the war in 1861--and still sends a disproportionate ratio today) is 49th in the nation of wealth. Mississippi is 50th. I'm an Alabamian, and I have some Southern Pride... I'm not sure where it came from, but there it is.

My point with that history lesson is this:

Had Congress been less stringent after the war, the South would have been less hostile in the aftermath; the Black Codes and all the rest of the mess. If Lincoln had not been assassinated, his plan was much more forgiving, but still with a strong military presense. If Lincoln had survived, the south wouldn't have been both broken militarily AND economically, but would have had a chance to overcome the industrializing profiteers and the Boll Weevil repercussions later in the century.

So to answer your question, the South was not as loyal as it could have been, mostly due to the rabid nature in which Congress treated the post-war legislatures of the South (understandably, as many of the CSA officials had been reelected).
 
It's important to remember there are always huge numbers of Union loyalists throughout the Old South. I'm constantly trying to get my students to forget the inaccurate cliche of North vs South. To a large extent the ACW is a civil war within the South.

Southern Unionists include most people in the border states, nearly the entire Black population, many whites who are mostly small farmers in regions like E Tennessee, the German-American population, most Tejanos, tribes like the Lumbee and most of the Five Tribes in OK.

I haven't seen a population breakdown (if someone has it please post) but I suspect we're talking about 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire Southern population.

It might be useful to remember the Compromise of 1876. There was widespread talk of a second civil war because the Dems (who even asked for a former Confederate general to be placed in the cabinet) had actually won the election but it was stolen by the GOP. How many were that serious I don't know, but the talk of a second civil war went away once the GOP agreed to end Reconstruction.
 
Last edited:
My point with that history lesson is this:

Had Congress been less stringent after the war, the South would have been less hostile in the aftermath; the Black Codes and all the rest of the mess. If Lincoln had not been assassinated, his plan was much more forgiving, but still with a strong military presense. If Lincoln had survived, the south wouldn't have been both broken militarily AND economically, but would have had a chance to overcome the industrializing profiteers and the Boll Weevil repercussions later in the century.

So to answer your question, the South was not as loyal as it could have been, mostly due to the rabid nature in which Congress treated the post-war legislatures of the South (understandably, as many of the CSA officials had been reelected).

some how i doubt that the South would ever been anything but hostile about Black Suffrage, so a less stringent Congress sees no African Americans in Congress or even voting in the South, the short moment in history where the black Majority in states like Mississippi and South Carolina had they're rightful power would of NEVER happened, personally i think they should of passed the Wade-Davis Bill, Reconstruction failed because of the lack of a lack of will.
 
Considering that in 1860, the black population in the 11 seceding states was about 40%, the loyalist population of any of the seceding states could easily top 50%. However, without the military presence during Reconstruction, the black population would have been completely denied any rights to participate in the political system, so I am unconvinced that the republican reconstruction caused attitudes of southerners to be anymore negative than they already were. It's my opinion that in those parts of the South that had the highest percentage of blacks - SC, Miss, Alab - were the places where the white population discriminated the most. Obviously the reason was their fear of losing power and they believed the only way to maintain their power was to prevent the black majorities from taking it away with their participation in the political process. Reconstruction really had nothing to do with fixing the attitudes of southern whites, it was a result of demographics.

In fact, unfortunately, white attitudes didn't change and civil rights for blacks didn't really occur in the South until the 1950s and 1960s when the demographics in many parts of the South had changed and whites became a majority. Basically 50 years of black migration from the South to the North changed the demographics enough in the South that whites, as a majority for the first time had no need to fear losing power if blacks got to vote. Of course civil right legislation helped too, but legislation wasn't really responsible for changing attitudes - that was the result of the change in demographics.
 
Last edited:
...during Reconstruction and afterwards? I know about the Ten Percent Plan and the Radical Republicans' Fifty Percent Plan, but I'm not too trusting of any Southern vote between 1865-1877.

Just how loyal were the Southern States, really? If, say, President Grant coughed up his own lungs and liver during the Bicentennial and then a chandelier fell on every member of the cabinet, would Southern states take the opportunity to secede again, would they cooperate fully with Federal authorities to restore order, or would they just quietly stick to themselves and merely act autonomously but still be technically part of the Union?
Grant in 1976?
 
It's important to remember there are always huge numbers of Union loyalists throughout the Old South. I'm constantly trying to get my students to forget the inaccurate cliche of North vs South. To a large extent the ACW is a civil war within the South.

Southern Unionists include most people in the border states, nearly the entire Black population, many whites who are mostly small farmers in regions like E Tennessee, the German-American population, most Tejanos, tribes like the Lumbee and most of the Five Tribes in OK.

I haven't seen a population breakdown (if someone has it please post) but I suspect we're talking about 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire Southern population.

It might be useful to remember the Compromise of 1876. There was widespread talk of a second civil war because the Dems (with a former Confederate general as candidate) had actually won the election but it was stolen by the GOP. How many were that serious I don't know, but the talk of a second civil war went away once the GOP agreed to end Reconstruction.

Where are you getting that estimate?

Are you just guessing?

What makes you think the OK Natives were so against the Confederacy, especially considering many of them were slave-owning planters, too?

And almost all blacks? Is that why the mulattos of New Orleans tried to organize a regiment to fight for the Confederacy?

There was some un-rest in the South, mostly in the border states, but also in some of the back-woods areas of the Deep South, but 50% is a number you could only arrive at by pulling it out of your ass.
 
Also, AmIndHist is wrong on at least one point: Samuel Tilden was certainly no Southern general, but rather a Governor of New York.

Hope he's not teaching his students that. :p
 
well, as I've mentioned before, I think that Southern loyalty would've been cemented by say an earlier SAW say 5-10 yrs after 1865, or if the US went to war against Franz-Joseph in Mexico by 1867, whereby the ex-Confederates would've been much more galvanised into the national US war effort against an external foe- just as the OTL SAW in 1898 healed up the North-South rift (though regrettably not the racial rift) for good.
 
well, as I've mentioned before, I think that Southern loyalty would've been cemented by say an earlier SAW say 5-10 yrs after 1865, or if the US went to war against Franz-Joseph in Mexico by 1867, whereby the ex-Confederates would've been much more galvanised into the national US war effort against an external foe- just as the OTL SAW in 1898 healed up the North-South rift (though regrettably not the racial rift) for good.

Melvin is right, nothing brings a country together like a war with its neighbor. Hell that's Germany was made. If the Southerners were able to win back their rights as citizens by Military Service and we added a few more states to the map, alls the better.
 
Where are you getting that estimate?

Are you just guessing?

What makes you think the OK Natives were so against the Confederacy, especially considering many of them were slave-owning planters, too?

And almost all blacks? Is that why the mulattos of New Orleans tried to organize a regiment to fight for the Confederacy?

There was some un-rest in the South, mostly in the border states, but also in some of the back-woods areas of the Deep South, but 50% is a number you could only arrive at by pulling it out of your ass.

Nice manners, or lack of.

Nice willingness to ignore inconvenient facts.

The number of "slaveowners" among the Five Tribes was small. Among the Creek and Seminole, it wasn't slavery at all, but a tribute relationship.

Those Creoles of New Orleans, whom you inaccurately call mulattos (most were less than 1/2 BQ) were refused in their efforts for the CSA. CSA officials feared armed Creoles and didn't trust them.

http://www.frenchcreoles.com/milita...ana Native Guards/louisiana native guards.htm


And thanks to Sam for in part responding to my request. As he points out, Blacks alone made up 40% of the population of the states in rebellion.

Ignoring that I made a rough guess of 1/3 to 1/2, and then was proved to be right in what I clearly said was my own estimate, is truly putting...no, unlike you, I won't get childish. I'll just instead suggest you grow up.
 
Last edited:
Silly Jaded, of course only White people can be slave owners;)

Most of the Natives he calls "slave owners" weren't. A tribute relationship isn't nearly the same.

The Cherokee Nation actually passed a resolution denouncing the slave owners as alien to their culture, white in mind and spirit.
 
Most of the Natives he calls "slave owners" weren't. A tribute relationship isn't nearly the same.

The Cherokee Nation actually passed a resolution denouncing the slave owners as alien to their culture, white in mind and spirit.

That would be an interesting document to see.

Do you have a source?
 
Top