John Lackland: The Count of Savoy

Another Wiki-inspired WI:

Originally posted by Wikipedia

As a child, John was betrothed to Alais (pronounced 'Alice'), daughter and heiress of Humbert III of Savoy. It was hoped that by this marriage the Angevin dynasty would extend its influence beyond the Alps, because John was promised the inheritance of Savoy, the Piemonte, Maurienne, and the other possessions of Count Humbert. King Henry promised his young son castles in Normandy which had been previously promised to his brother Geoffrey, which was for some time a bone of contention between King Henry and his son Geoffrey. Alais made the trip over the Alps and joined Henry's court, but she died before being married.

So, the POD is that 'Alais' survives and marries John Lackland. This won't change history much (unless those castles have some significance?) until 1189 when Humbert III dies and John comes into his Alpine inheritance. To make things even more interesting, his brother Richard Lionheart is preparing to leave England for Crusade potentially leaving a power vacumn that John could potentially exploit.

As I see it, John has two choices:
  1. Leave for Savoy and enforce his position as Count
  2. Remain in England and follow a similar policy to OTL
Which one is the more likely? What will follow from it? Personally I suspect John will remain in England to secure the far more prestigious kingship but I could be wrong.

Any thoughts?
 
I've been reading a book about this period (I really should finish more books), and my memory isn't 100% on this so I won't go into depth, but I recall that during Henry II's reign, his children's placement in control of land was like playing chess against multiple opponents, where his children were both the chess pieces and the opponents.

Henry's children were naturally rebellious - it didn't help that Henry's wife, Eleanor of Aquitaine, encouraged their rebelliousness. He was unwilling to have one child take the whole inheritance, as the natural idea to Henry, a product of the age and his reasoning, was the idea of having a sort of "federal England" (and that's a direct quote from my book) with his eldest child being King of England and the head of this state, and his other children forming dynasties to rule over the individual parts as vassals to England. The fact that several of his children died, reducing the inheritance, was simultaneously troubling to his vision, and probably the thing which held England's control of continental land together. But John Lackland was called Lackland for a reason - he was his father's least favourite son, and Henry laughed in John's face publicly that he had no land. Depriving him of land wasn't a sick joke, of course, though his treatment of John was quite cruel, but Henry only saw his Empire as being divisible into three portions. He had to actually create Ireland as a Lordship to make a fourth portion for John later on, when he decided that John needed land. And as Henry the Young King and Geoffrey died off, these weren't expected deaths. John didn't sit back hoping to inherit over his brothers' dead bodies. Though there was some chafing at each others' power, and some rivalry when war broke out amongst father and sons, by and large there wasn't any attempts at brother dethroning brother. Certainly not in England. The only political playing was trying to usurp Henry II's authority (his sons wanted to force him to resign his thrones so that they could run amok themselves). John had no inkling that he'd ever take England's throne - especially when Richard became sovereign. His death was a shock. So John isn't going to sit around waiting for his chance, he'll go for Savoy. In fact he'll probably go there early, even before he has inherited, in order to feel like he is in his own province.

What is more interesting to me is what John will do while Richard is King, and whether by posing an addition threat from another angle, England could stave off France's invasions to hold the Angevin Empire together a little longer - at least until a more militarily competant king comes along...though with Henry III next, maybe not...
 
Hmm...interesting. If John has already been in Savoy for a few years and secured himself in his province, might he consider raising a force and joining his brother on the Third Crusade? That could lead in an interesting direction.

Also, recall that as John has a completly different spouse ITTL and is spending time in Savoy rather than England, his children will be noticeably divergent from OTL. ITTL Henry may well prove militarily capable (though not brilliant in all likelihood).
 
Hmm...interesting. If John has already been in Savoy for a few years and secured himself in his province, might he consider raising a force and joining his brother on the Third Crusade? That could lead in an interesting direction.

Also, recall that as John has a completly different spouse ITTL and is spending time in Savoy rather than England, his children will be noticeably divergent from OTL. ITTL Henry may well prove militarily capable (though not brilliant in all likelihood).

The Angevin Empire might well all go to Arthur, Geoffrey's son...

The reason John (allegedly) had Arthur bumped off was because of the ambiguity to the succession tradition...
 
The Angevin Empire might well all go to Arthur, Geoffrey's son...

The reason John (allegedly) had Arthur bumped off was because of the ambiguity to the succession tradition...

Fair point.

I wonder what kind of relationship John might have with his nephew ITTL? If Arthur comes to the throne early enough, the Count may try to install himself (or someone he can control) as regent. From there, I can't help but think Richard III...

Something that hasn't really been mentioned. What could John and his offspring get up to in Savoy and the Italian peninsula generally?
 
Hmmm,

If Richard does die early in TTL Phillippe will support Arthur even more than OTL as King of England over John because John is even more a vassal of HRE (Savoy is certainly a vassal of HRE while Aquitaine's vassalage was iffy). So expect some sort of Bovines invasion this time with England on the same side as France against the HRE.
 
Hmmm,

If Richard does die early in TTL Phillippe will support Arthur even more than OTL as King of England over John because John is even more a vassal of HRE (Savoy is certainly a vassal of HRE while Aquitaine's vassalage was iffy). So expect some sort of Bovines invasion this time with England on the same side as France against the HRE.

But will John try to push his claim? He has his own lands ITTL, will he have the same hunger for power as OTL? If he does wouldn't it make more sense to pursue them in Europe?

Also, I'm not familiar with 'Bovines invasion'. What does this refer to?
 
I meant Bouvines ;)
And refer to the Battle of Bouvines that conclusively ended the conflicts (the so-called War of the Bouvines) between King John and King Phillip.
 
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