Japan doesn't close up

I've just been reading a paper on historic Japanese knowledge of geography and it really jogged my mind on some interesting points. Before Japan closed itself off to the world it was doing pretty well in modernising, too well even, hence the reason for its closure. It was sending ambassadors to Europe and trying to start up trade with the Americas.
So...WI internal power struggles keep going a bit stronger meaning there is no one to dictate the closure of the country?

Could be quite interesting to have a bit of a bipolar world...
 
However, what if the Tokugawa hadn't made themselves Shogun, and someone else did instead? That could create lots of butterflies.
 
Have Toyotomi more successful in Korea, or Sekigahara go the other way. Consequences might be interesting.
 
However, what if the Tokugawa hadn't made themselves Shogun, and someone else did instead? That could create lots of butterflies.

I'd think whoever comes to dominate the whole country would be just as interested in keeping the status quo,.
 
I'd think whoever comes to dominate the whole country would be just as interested in keeping the status quo,.

Why?

Whoever takes over Japan might want another go at Korea, to become a rich trading empire like their Dutch allies, etc.

I don't think OTL's Seclusion policy is inevitable.
 
Why?

Whoever takes over Japan might want another go at Korea, to become a rich trading empire like their Dutch allies, etc.

I don't think OTL's Seclusion policy is inevitable.

Japan is the most important thing in the universe to those people. Even if they weren't quite so ignorant of the world outside as their ancestors had been the opportunities that lie abroad are still ancilliary to success at home.

I don't think its inevitable either. Hence the thread. However put someone else into the same position as Tokugawa and they've just as big an interest in the status quo as he did.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Japan is the most important thing in the universe to those people. Even if they weren't quite so ignorant of the world outside as their ancestors had been the opportunities that lie abroad are still ancilliary to success at home.

I don't understand your point. Plenty of Britons went overseas to make thier fortune and hten return home?
 

maverick

Banned
Ah, the "Japan doesn't close up" thread of the week. I thought these one came every tuesday, not every wednesday. So much for efficient government. :rolleyes:

I don't understand your point. Plenty of Britons went overseas to make thier fortune and hten return home?

And so did many Japanese people. Well, not many, but quite a few.

So...WI internal power struggles keep going a bit stronger meaning there is no one to dictate the closure of the country?

The warring states period started in the 1400s. You can't keep a civil war going on forever. Eventually someone comes on top.

I'd think whoever comes to dominate the whole country would be just as interested in keeping the status quo

The status quo is civil war.

Could be quite interesting to have a bit of a bipolar world...

How it would be bipolar?

Have Toyotomi more successful in Korea, or Sekigahara go the other way. Consequences might be interesting.

Both could work, although success in Korea would not entail the conquer of all of Korea, but rather a division of the peninsula between Japan and China, and quite possibly the death of Toyotomi, because otherwise he would have kept trying to conquer the WHOLE CONTINENT, as he was quite mad at the end of his life.
 
I don't understand your point. Plenty of Britons went overseas to make thier fortune and hten return home?
Europe was a far more international place. It was far more standard to have dealings with abroad, there were many foreign dcountries out there, diplomacy was well established.
Japan...Well the Japanese world basically consisted of Japan, China (Korea and Okinawa being Chinese vassals of varying degrees) and then a vague knowledge of India far away. Mostly there was just China. Their outlook on the world was very different and by nature far more insular.

Ah, the "Japan doesn't close up" thread of the week. I thought these one came every tuesday, not every wednesday. So much for efficient government. :rolleyes:
Really?
I've not seen one for eons.
Never a good one.

The warring states period started in the 1400s. You can't keep a civil war going on forever. Eventually someone comes on top.
It worked with Europe.

The status quo is civil war.
Not once the shogun has established himself.

How it would be bipolar?
A modernish, forward and outward looking nation on the opposite side of the globe to Spain and co.
 

maverick

Banned
But I forgot to explain.

These threads never go anywhere because the OP is often short and vague and made with incorrect notions about Japan, whereas those who respond often do so with the same basic level of knowledge about Japan or East Asian Affairs, meaning that what they do is throw vague suggestion in the form of one-liners, not because they're lazy or dumb, but because they don't have the necessary knowledge about the area, which is why 80% of threads about Japan, China or any area that's not American or British Politics, or WWII, often fails to get past page 1. In this case the OP contradicts itself, as one one hand it states that Japan would become a second pole to Europe, but that such a scenario would need a divided and weak Japan.

Now, the thing is, misconceptions aside, Japan not closing up in the 17th century wouldn't mean that Japan becomes another pole of power in the Pacific. The structural powers that always prevent Japan from becoming a local hegemon are still there: China, lack of resources, European rivals, demographics, etc.

Assuming that it is not Tokugawa Ieyasu the one who is victorioius in Sekigahara but that instead the Toyotomi remain as Sesshō and Kampaku, then we might see Japan remain open, which means that Japanese silver, copper, swords and luxury items can flow and that imports can come.

This doesn't mean more commerce with Europe though, but rather more commerce with Asia, as Asia was the first source of products for Japan and the main market in which Japan would trade. Commerce with the Americas and Europe might continue and expand, but Japan was already producing weapons on her own in the early 1600s, so there's only so much that they can take from Europe at the time, meaning that effects wouldn't be felt until several decades later, perhaps in the 18th century.

The technological gap between east and west began appearing in the 18th century and really made a difference in the 19th century, in times of the Industrial Revolution.

Then we have another popular topic: Christianity in China. If the Toyotomi are the ones to take over, or any other Clan, then it's just as likely that Christianity would have been seen as a threat as it is that it would have continued to spread, because in Japan and elsewhere, Christianity was seen as the vanguard of Spanish and European Colonization and a perverse influence, etc. With time, we would see some form of action from the government against the spread of Christianity, unless the Government is directly benefiting from it in one way or the other, like Oda Nobunaga did in the 1580s. That is without mentioning other problems that Christianity faced with Japanese culture and religion, from resistance from local Buddhism to poor management of the Jesuits, lack of missionaries and inability to adapt to some aspects of Japanese culture or adapt doctrine to local beliefs.
 
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What if the Shogunate remained weak (the Ashikaga shogunate survive, but continue declining, no one else strong enough to step in), and the local daimyos remained strong. That could be interesting.
 
They didn't entirely close up IOTL. They adopted a very restricted type of trading and prevented missionaries from sparking colonization. That seemed to work pretty well for them, IIRC.
 
The majority of my knowledge about Japan is later than the Closing, but what if either the Shogun or Emperor convert to Christianity? Considering it was the Christians with the guns I can imagine a Japanese Christian rising to power. If the Emperor was Christian I doubt anyone would have the courage to kill him, though I don't know how he would become a Christian. Foreigner becomes close friend, then converts him? Considering the God status of the Emperor, this might conflict, but if the Emperor adopts Christianity it might be similar to what Constantine did. A Christian king is Asia also isn't that ridiculous, it nearly happened in Ayutthaya. Of course, I'm half-answering half-asking here. Anyone have any thoughts on my idea?
 
If the Emperor was Christian I doubt anyone would have the courage to kill him, though I don't know how he would become a Christian. Foreigner becomes close friend, then converts him? Considering the God status of the Emperor, this might conflict, but if the Emperor adopts Christianity it might be similar to what Constantine did.

I think the much more likely outcome would be to sideline him and force him to abdicate in favour of a relative who is more orthodox Japanese. Abdication was very common in the Japanese court anyway.
 
I think the much more likely outcome would be to sideline him and force him to abdicate in favour of a relative who is more orthodox Japanese. Abdication was very common in the Japanese court anyway.

What if we have a strong Emperor with a solid Christian backing? True, there were plenty of weak Emperors, but what if this guy isn't or he's weak but a more powerful Christian in the background wants to keep him on the throne? (Christians did have the guns...)
 
Japan is the most important thing in the universe to those people. Even if they weren't quite so ignorant of the world outside as their ancestors had been the opportunities that lie abroad are still ancilliary to success at home.

What about the Japanese who went to the USA, Brazil and even Chile. What about Kazuo Ishiguro writing the Remains of the Day a very English novel. I don't think they gave a s**t about being successful in Japan.

They are just people. Samurai guys comitting Hara-Kiri is as representative of the Japanese people as a sexually repressed man in a bowler hat is representative of the English people.
 
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