Japan declares war on germany july 1941

Rommel1941

Let's say Japan declares war in July 1941. The emperor makes a command.
Offers
1, naval support to protect the Pacific and Indian Ocean
2 infantry and ships to the Mediterranean
3 zero aircraft to britan and Russia.
4 access to oil
5 help on negotiating an end to the war in China
6 a long term lease on Netherlands oil
7 alliance with britan.
8 support to Russia in transporting supplies from USA to Russia.

Results would be peace in China. Short term oil from middle east Netherlands oil britan and Russia gain support at a critical time.
 

Lalli

What? In OTL Germany hadn't even any possessions in Pacific anymore. So what there has happened before that? You would need some earlier POD otherwise whole scenario not make any sense.

And emperor hadn't power to order wars. Even Meiji emperor couldn't do that alone.
 

Post

Rommel1941 said:
5 help on negotiating an end to the war in China
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Did Japan really want to end the war in China? If they did want it, they wanted to keep their conquests (and maybe add some). So what is the goal of the negotiations and how does that align with what the UK and US want?
 

regnak

It would make sense to reverse this after Pearl Harbor, if Germany declared war on Japan it would cause problems in the USA politically
 

Lalli

Sekhmet_D said:
On what grounds?
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OP should indeed clarify these things. Why Japan just would declare war to Germany? What is POD? How this world differs from OTL 1941 (because something has to be very different otherwise this not make sense)?
 

Aber

Sekhmet_D said:
On what grounds?
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Perhaps a belief that Britain + Russia (plus undeclared USA) > Germany + Italy, and a desire to be on the winning side.

Harder to justify a blockade on an ally; allies will ask China to be more "reasonable".

Doesn't have to be true, just that the Japanese leadership believe it.
 

jlckansas

Just giving up on China won't work and the Emperor was too invested by the Army's propaganda in the China fight because of their slanted briefings to him, yes and somewhat the Navy's also. You would need something to happen way back in 37 or 38 to the IJA to make them want to have peace in China. If the US pushed back more on the Panay incident that makes the Emperor more involved in China and not being briefed on what is actually happening might make some changes. Have some of the Army officers try a Coup of some kind might work if it failed, but it would have to be in 39 or 40 to have any effect on the Army.
 

Garrison

Donor
Aber said:
Perhaps a belief that Britain + Russia (plus undeclared USA) > Germany + Italy, and a desire to be on the winning side.
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Except that Japan and the USA had been at odds for most of the latter part of the 1930s, the Japanese suddenly deciding to join the Allies is a bizarre concept.
 

Lee-Sensei

Japan gets nothing from declaring war on Germany in 1941. Their best play is to settle for Manchukuo and declare war on the Germany near the end of the war.
 
Nell_Lucifer

Nell_Lucifer

Garrison said:
Except that Japan and the USA had been at odds for most of the latter part of the 1930s, the Japanese suddenly deciding to join the Allies is a bizarre concept.
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Not really, remember that the USA is still neutral in the European conflict. The Japanese might believe that if they join the Allies - basically just the British Empire the Soviet Union - they could obtain concessions from the British and Soviets for a free hand in China for support against the Axis forces with the USA becoming more lenient on them.

I think the logic would be that, (maybe this is the POD? or a butterfly?) Yamamoto resigns so the support for a war with the US is non-existent, a war with the British might have been possible... if the Germans did not invade the Soviets and any attack against the Allies will inevitably drag the US into it with the whole neutrality patrols. They might, perhaps rightfully, believe that all their resource issues following the embargo could be rectified by simply joining the stronger looking force and forcing said force to rescind them.

In theory, the risk is low, the reward is moderate and it might renew the Anglo-Japanese Alliance in the future.
 

Sekhmet_D

Kicked
Nell_Lucifer said:
I think the logic would be that, (maybe this is the POD? or a butterfly?) Yamamoto resigns so the support for a war with the US is non-existent, a war with the British might have been possible...
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The decision to go to war with America was not Yamamoto's to make. In fact he opposed it until the Tojo Cabinet and Supreme War Council made up their minds.
 

jlckansas

All roads to a settlement in China run through the US and even the isolationists in the US supported helping the Chinese over the Japanese.
 

MonarchistCanuck

I remember there was a TL with this kind of scenario by Waterproof Potatoes (very sad it died), however IIRC he had to have two different POD's in order for an Allied Japan to be plausible, one was a slightly different WNT (Japan wasn't forced to scrap hulls and the ship ratio was slightly more in their favour) and the other involved the Emperor cracking down on the Kwantung Army's more... independent streak. In short July 1941 is way too short a time for the Japanese to change their minds, I think by then they had committed to the Southern Strategy
 
Nell_Lucifer

Nell_Lucifer

gradje said:
Question. I've seen the acronym ASB multiple times. What does it stand for exactly?
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Alien Space Bat, basically a random omnipotent being as used in other genres. Self inserts, transportation of cities to the past/future, supernatural and magical stuff or basically almost impossible actions taken by historical persons - brainwashing them and so on.
 

Sekhmet_D

Kicked
gradje said:
Question. I've seen the acronym ASB multiple times. What does it stand for exactly?
Click to expand...

Nell_Lucifer said:
Alien Space Bat, basically a random omnipotent being as used in other genres. Self inserts, transportation of cities to the past/future, supernatural and magical stuff or basically almost impossible actions taken by historical persons - brainwashing them and so on.
Click to expand...
When used as an adjective here, it means the scenario is preposterous/unfeasible. "This scenario is alien space bats."
 
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