IJN spotted by USAAF post Pearl Harbor

[Fearless Leader]

In OTL the USAAF sent out a bunch of sorties to try and locate the IJN in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor but none succeeded in finding them. I know the odds are low, but what if one of the early ones did?

I'm assuming that the USAAF would throw whatever they could at the fleet. A few B-17s and maybe some B-18s tops. The raid Probably would not be enough to damage or even hit the fleet but perhaps it could be enough to spook the IJN into pushing more airframes overboard?

Would the Enterprise get in on the action?

How would knowledge of where the IJN was and its heading on Dec 8 impact the immediate aftermath of the Pearl Harbor raid?

 

[Dorknought]

Lexington would be in a position to strike as she was delivering fighters to Midway.

 

[Bob in Pittsburgh]

I don't think that there was much that the US forces could have done. Of the 402 US planes present 188 were destroyed and 159 damaged. You also had 12 B-17 that flew in from the mainland. The USS Enterprise launched 17 Dive bombers that approached Pearl Harbor during the raid and 7 were destroyed. That would have left 18 fighters, 21 dive bombers and 12 or 13 torpedo planes on Enterprise. Lexington was off of 500 miles southeast of Midway so she would not have been in position to attack. She had 65 planes in addition to 18 Vindicator dive bombers destined for Midway. The Japanese started with 400 planes, 29 were lost and 74 were damaged. So the Japanese had 300 undamaged planes the US less than 100. Also all of teh Japanese planes were front line combat planes a lot of teh US planes were patrol planes.

 

[Fearless Leader]

Lexington would be in a position to strike as she was delivering fighters to Midway.

Maybe, fuel is going to be an issue though. She needed to refuel in OTL on the 8th IIRC.

I don't think that there was much that the US forces could have done. Of the 402 US planes present 188 were destroyed and 159 damaged. You also had 12 B-17 that flew in from the mainland. The USS Enterprise launched 17 Dive bombers that approached Pearl Harbor during the raid and 7 were destroyed. That would have left 18 fighters, 21 dive bombers and 12 or 13 torpedo planes on Enterprise. Lexington was off of 500 miles southeast of Midway so she would not have been in position to attack. She had 65 planes in addition to 18 Vindicator dive bombers destined for Midway. The Japanese started with 400 planes, 29 were lost and 74 were damaged. So the Japanese had 300 undamaged planes the US less than 100. Also all of teh Japanese planes were front line combat planes a lot of teh US planes were patrol planes.

At most I think the IJN loses a few dozen more aircraft as they ready their decks for a perceived counter strike. I'm more interested in the possibility of the US carriers refueling at Pearl earlier and launching an earlier Wake Relief mission.

 

[Dorknought]

Maybe, fuel is going to be an issue though. She needed to refuel in OTL on the 8th IIRC.

She was between Johnson Island and Hawaii, the Midway reinforcement had been cancelled. She was ordered to search for the Japanese, presumably to attack if found but in this scenario they have a fix. The refuling problems didn't occur till Dec 11-12 and Lexington was ordered back to PH to refuel on the 13th. Lexingtons fighters were F2A Buffalos - ouch.

 

[Post]

If Lexington was in position to launch an attack, is there a possibility this backfires and she is counterattacked by the Japanese and sunk? Or where the Japanese so low on fuel that this was not possible?

 

[Nick P]

Most likely is that the USN sends the location to all submarines and ships in the Pacific while relying on the flyboys to keep them updated on the exact location.

IJN ships didn't have radar until 1942 so maybe a late night or dawn torpedo attack might have worked for the USAAF. Again, knowing the enemys location is key.

 

[CalBear]

Lexington would be in a position to strike as she was delivering fighters to Midway.

Correction:

Lexington would be in a position to be sunk if she ran flat out for a full day. She was delivering Vultee Vindicator Dive Bombers to the Marine Air detachment on Midway.

Her Task Force was at 23°.30'N, 170°.30W, roughly a full day's sail at 30 knots from a potential intercept position.

On December 7th Lady Lex had a TOTAL of 16 F2A-3 Brewster Buffaloes as her fighter complement. She had 12 TBD, and 30 SBD (16 "-2" and 14 "-3" variants). Surface escort was three CA and five DD.

Enterprise was at 21°.11'N, 161°.00 West about 350 miles from a possible intercept position at dawn on December 8th.

She was slightly better situated regarding aircraft, very slightly, with 16 F4F3-A Wildcats as her fighter complement. She had 18 TBD, 35 SBD (27"-2" and 8 "-3" variants) and two SNJ-3 (i.e. T-6) trainers aboard. Surface escort was three CA and nine DD.

The American carriers show up and they die. Just that simple. The Japanese go from a significant tactical victory to a major strategic victory. Won't win the war for Japan, but it will probably buy them six-eight months. Might also cost the WAllies Malta since the pressure to send Wasp into the Pacific immediately may be overwhelming, making Torch much more difficult.

 

[CalBear]

If Lexington was in position to launch an attack, is there a possibility this backfires and she is counterattacked by the Japanese and sunk? Or where the Japanese so low on fuel that this was not possible?

They were able to detach Hiryu and Soryu and their escorts (CruDiv 8 with 2 CA and DesDiv 17 with 2 DD) and send them all the way to Wake Island, almost 1,600 miles south. They has sufficient fuel in their heavies to make a short divert, although they would be very low on destroyer escort.

As I noted above, If Lexington or Enterprise manage to sprint into position (which is unlikely, the smart money was that the Kido Butai would head into the Mandates after refueling so there would be an initial move SSE before moving North to their true course) they are sunk, along with most of their escorts.

 

[marathag]

How much Ordnance was left on the Japanese carriers, and their fuel situation?

 

[CalBear]

How much Ordnance was left on the Japanese carriers, and their fuel situation?

They were more than adequate on munitions. The entire force had only used 40 torpedoes in the Raid and less than 200 bombs over 50kg. (lot of damage for every little expenditure).

Akagi was in something of lower fuel situation, but far from critical. The rest of the carriers, battleships and heavy cruisers were still barely into "yellow"; the issue was destroyer fuel. Japanese destroyers tended to short legs. As an example the Hatsuharu class had a max endurance of 4,000 nautical miles @14 knots and even the later Asashio class capped out at 5,700nm. That wouldn't have been a serious issue (the U.S. Fletcher class had about the same endurance as the Asashios), but the Japanese simply didn't have the sort of fleet train needed to conduct open water extended operations (it is worth noting that with a few notable exceptions, like Pearl Harbor, the IJN tended to operate close to their bases, especially their LoN Mandates). The support force at Pearl was pretty much dry by the time the finished refueling the strike force.

Actually if you want to put a hitch in the Kido Butai's giddy-up the way to do it is have the Lex stumble over one of the support flotillas.