How antisemitic would a Gnostic majority Europe end up being?

[mienoguy]

Mideval Europe OTL was already not a great place to be a Jew, with the Jewish community having faced periodic bouts of expulsions, pogroms, and other kinds of religious violence motivated in no small part by the Catholic church's institutionalization of antisemitic laws and polices.

Could this be even worse in an alternate Europe where Gnosticism became the dominant form of Christianity? Gnostics quite literally believe the old Testament God is evil, at least Catholicism believes in the old Testament. What incentive would Gnostics have to even tolerate a group who they thought worshipped the Demiurge?

 

[DJ03]

"gnostic" is a very large umbrella which covers a lot of different groups
i think you're referring to the marcionites

If marcionites were to become the uncontested christian church in the Empire, and events unfold somewhat like iotl, I don't think there's going to be a lot of jews around: they'd get frcflly integrated, kicked out, not allowed to settle (depending on the place), etc early on

 

[CountPeter]

This is a lot harder to answer than you may think.

Gnosticism didn't technically exist, but is a historical construct that refers to various trends that share common elements (and can in and of themselves lead to radically different theologies).
For example, the most widespread gnostic faith (Manichaeism) certainly wasn't antisemitic given it was literally founded by a messianic Jew, whilst Valentinian Gnostic writings (iirc) suggest that the Jews aren't so much worshiping the demiurge as they are conflating worship of the demiurge and the true god.

For the Valentinian example, you may notice that this applies just as equally to Christians (non-gnostic) as it does to Jews.

So in short, you need to narrow it down to which gnostic trend we are talking about and why they are specifically singling out Jews.

 

[DJ03]

btw, iotl it seems the early Church(es) understood all other faiths as heresies of the correct one that God revealed to the biblical patriarchs, so it'd be interesting how a group explicitly deemed to be devil worshippers would fit in that

 

[jacob ningen]

This is a lot harder to answer than you may think.

Gnosticism didn't technically exist, but is a historical construct that refers to various trends that share common elements (and can in and of themselves lead to radically different theologies).
For example, the most widespread gnostic faith (Manichaeism) certainly wasn't antisemitic given it was literally founded by a messianic Jew, whilst Valentinian Gnostic writings (iirc) suggest that the Jews aren't so much worshiping the demiurge as they are conflating worship of the demiurge and the true god.

For the Valentinian example, you may notice that this applies just as equally to Christians (non-gnostic) as it does to Jews.

So in short, you need to narrow it down to which gnostic trend we are talking about and why they are specifically singling out Jews.

Im reminded of Voltaire analytic philosopher and Hutton's appraisal of the Wild Hunt. ie Martin im not a socinian im a Manichean. Or the Is Lewis a meinongian vs a really unorthodox Quinean

 

[Arkenfolm]

I mean the Yazidis have long been accused of that, and although many have persecuted them, their religion still exists.

And honestly I doubt it would be any different than OTL where the dominant belief was that Jews eagerly killed Jesus (and all the implications thereof), frequently condemns Judaism as it evolved to be, and claims the Antichrist will be Jewish. What's a bit of allegations of devil worship on top of that, especially when it was widely believed Jews murdered gentiles in blood sacrifice rituals?

 

[DJ03]

I mean the Yazidis have long been accused of that, and although many have persecuted them, their religion still exists.

the yazidis were and are frly unknown to most, christians in particular know very little about them

What's a bit of allegations of devil worship on top of that, especially when it was widely believed Jews murdered gentiles in blood sacrifice rituals?

you're understating it by "a bit". the accusation here would be that their god is clrly and plnly the devil, that their holy book is inspired by him and that all their feasts were prescribed by him and it wouldn't be "widely believed", it'd be firmly held as a fact by all

 

[Aluma]

And honestly I doubt it would be any different than OTL

...Are you kidding me

OTL Christianity still held the Hebrew Bible as sacred, their God as the True God and the jews as it's Choosen People(granted, depending on the interpretation the Church took that mantle, but still)

This is leagues from literally claiming that God is Evil and the Hebrew Bible conceived by Satan and the jews the evil spawn and worshippers of the Evil God

where the dominant belief was that Jews eagerly killed Jesus (and all the implications thereof),

Unless you're Mel Gibson the held belief is that ALL of humanity was eager to kill God both in their hearts and in practice and Christ died not because of either the jews or the romans but by the Will of God to sacrifice himself and all that stuff

Yes, the Bible does present both the jews and the romans in their respective roles as instruments of that, but you already have to be a antisemite beforehand in order to frame it as "the jews killed God so we gotta avenge hin" as if his death wasnt the entire point of his own freakin book

frequently condemns Judaism as it evolved to be

Yes it very much does since for Christianity the religion of Judaism is a heresy competing with itself for the soul of men much like Islam
Which is still different from perceiving it as literal hell cult

and claims the Antichrist will be Jewish

Thats another distortion
It claims the Devil will create a Anti-Messiah, a bootleg of the Jewish Messiah whom they believe to be Christ, and the requirement for any of Messiah claimant is to be jewish
Thats like saying
"The Jews claims the Messiah will be Jewish"
Like no shit, thats a requirement for it

 

[Arkenfolm]

the yazidis were and are frly unknown to most, christians in particular know very little about them

you're understating it by "a bit". the accusation here would be that their god is clrly and plnly the devil, that their holy book is inspired by him and that all their feasts were prescribed by him and it wouldn't be "widely believed", it'd be firmly held as a fact by all

The Yazidis were historically despised by local Christians who avoided them, but because they didn't have much power when the Yazidi faith appeared, it was Muslim tribes and leaders who would actively persecute them on various occasions over the centuries. Despite the fact that Muslims and Christians alike believed the Yazidi were devil worshippers, their religion still exists.

...Are you kidding me

OTL Christianity still held the Hebrew Bible as sacred, their God as the True God and the jews as it's Choosen People(granted, depending on the interpretation the Church took that mantle, but still)

This is leagues from literally claiming that God is Evil and the Hebrew Bible conceived by Satan and the jews the evil spawn and worshippers of the Evil God

I don't see how that's any different than the belief that Jews bear the guilt for Jesus's death. Jews weren't even considered the chosen people by many Christians historically, since by rejecting Jesus they gave up that status to the Church.

Unless you're Mel Gibson the held belief is that ALL of humanity was eager to kill God both in their hearts and in practice and Christ died not because of either the jews or the romans but by the Will of God to sacrifice himself and all that stuff

Yes, the Bible does present both the jews and the romans in their respective roles as instruments of that, but you already have to be a antisemite beforehand in order to frame it as "the jews killed God so we gotta avenge hin" as if his death wasnt the entire point of his own freakin book

Matthew 27:24-25: "So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!"

This passage was historically held by prominent theologians like John Chrysostom to represent a generational guilt of the Jews. It was widely believed by Christians and inspired endless persecution of Jews into the 20th century (and honestly the present day, since every Christian antisemite who commits a crime against Jews believes this). In the Quran, it says the Jews falsely claim to have crucified Jesus (which should show how widespread this belief was), but Jesus tricked them into believing he was dead.

Yes it very much does since for Christianity the religion of Judaism is a heresy competing with itself for the soul of men much like Islam
Which is still different from perceiving it as literal hell cult

It's not realistic to place the conception Christians have of Satanism in the past 200 years onto how a different religion would perceive the Jews, whom are very obviously not secretive occultists associated with crime as Satanists were until very recently. At least other than perceptions of Jews that involved the occult like ritual child murder i.e. perceptions that existed OTL.

 

[Aluma]

It's not realistic to place the conception Christians have of Satanism in the past 200 years onto how a different religion would perceive the Jews

When that religion literally places them as worshippers of an Evil God who wants to keep humanity imprisoned in a eternal torture under his control? Yes, yes it is realistic to place such conception

gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!"

This passage was historically held by prominent theologians like John Chrysostom to represent a generational guilt of the Jews. It was widely believed by Christians and inspired endless persecution of Jews into the 20th century (and honestly the present day, since every Christian antisemite who commits a crime against Jews believes this).

Im aware of this passage and I repeat

The whole point of Christianity is that everyone carries the blood of Christ and in fact its only through that that Humanity as a whole can be saved and when Peter, another jew, tried to save Jesus from the roman soldiers he was very much called out by him for going against God's will

So again - you have to already be a antisemite to take the above passage as a excuse to persecute jews in some twisted pretense of avenging Christ he explicitly states he does not want to be avenged but to save his own persecutors

 

[Zincvit]

Tbh it's pretty simple for the Jews to deal with this, just like how the Alawites and other small creeds had done to prevent persecution OTL: Just lie about your faith.

 

[Metempsychosis]

Tbh it's pretty simple for the Jews to deal with this, just like how the Alawites and other small creeds had done to prevent persecution OTL: Just lie about your faith.

Muslims even have a word for it, though it's more used by the Shi'a: taqiyya, literally prudence.

 

[PecuTheGreat]

I think the antisemitism of Europe especially to the extent that it was pushed by the Christian element of Dark Ages and Medieval Europe is exaggerated. Christians certainly treated Pagans worse and it isn't until the first crusade we record wide scale polgroms against Jews while before that German princes and Bishops invited them in with special previleges and permissions.

It is likely more an innovation of the 12th century that grew from then onwards. And this is an important element of European antisemitism that's important to remember, Jews being earlier let in by European leaders, because if a more antisemitic religion or variant of Christianity was instituted from the beginning there won't even be much Jews in Europe to persecute in the first place.

For example, the most widespread gnostic faith (Manichaeism) certainly wasn't antisemitic given it was literally founded by a messianic Jew

And Christianity was also founded by Messianic Jews.

Tbh it's pretty simple for the Jews to deal with this, just like how the Alawites and other small creeds had done to prevent persecution OTL: Just lie about your faith.

TBH they might have already done that with the infamous "Jesus" boiling in excrement passage in the Thalmud as well as other possible Jesus references in the Thalmud and associated texts.

 

[PecuTheGreat]

This passage was historically held by prominent theologians like John Chrysostom to represent a generational guilt of the Jews. It was widely believed by Christians and inspired endless persecution of Jews into the 20th century (and honestly the present day, since every Christian antisemite who commits a crime against Jews believes this).

First Jewish Pogrom we get in the West is During the first Crusade, a Thousand years after Christianity and 600 years after Chrysotom. Jews were infact protected by laws by Rome and other Christian states. Maimonides who had lived in both Christian and Muslim lands in the 1200s called Arabs/Muslims, not Christians the greatest enemy of Jews.

Jews were still considered God's Chosen people and having an appropriate religion. Sure the Church is now "the real" Chosen people but it is "the real" Chosen people because it became grafted unto the choseness of the Jews.

Romans 11:17-21

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Christian European persecution of Jews is more a development. They were always 2nd class citizens of some type but straight up pogroms started in the 11th century and only in the Rhineland(and Germany in gener to an extent but later in time) initially. Popular hate grew from then until reaching a crescendo in the modern era. Rulership persecution of Jews, I really only know of from Rome but was sporadic, targeted at some elites and confined to trying to convert them, not kill them for being Jews.

 

[Whiteshore]

The Yazidis were historically despised by local Christians who avoided them, but because they didn't have much power when the Yazidi faith appeared, it was Muslim tribes and leaders who would actively persecute them on various occasions over the centuries. Despite the fact that Muslims and Christians alike believed the Yazidi were devil worshippers, their religion still exists.

Tbh it's pretty simple for the Jews to deal with this, just like how the Alawites and other small creeds had done to prevent persecution OTL: Just lie about your faith.

Muslims even have a word for it, though it's more used by the Shi'a: taqiyya, literally prudence.

On that note, the Yazidis were able to survive IIRC because they lived in mountainous terrain where it is harder for your persecutors to hunt you down, so fleeing to areas where your persecutors would be hard-pressed to root you out would also help.

 

[PecuTheGreat]

Yes it very much does since for Christianity the religion of Judaism is a heresy competing with itself for the soul of men much like Islam
Which is still different from perceiving it as literal hell cult

Not exactly it was not a heresy as it was often considered a continuation of the religion Christianity originated from(it's not really, like Christianity it is a post-temple innovation on 2nd temple Israelite religion) so, no wrong teachings exactly.

Instead it is more considered not yet updated but still good enough for Jews. This is why often Christian states made illegal Jews preaching and also made illegal force converting Jews (what is "force" converting and not just "cohersed" conversion as Augustine recommended to be done to Pagans would vary).

So it isn't really competition. Well, except for Jewish Children but Jewish Children aren't in as much danger of hell as Pagans in general are.

 

[PecuTheGreat]

On that note, the Yazidis were able to survive IIRC because they lived in mountainous terrain where it is harder for your persecutors to hunt you down, so fleeing to areas where your persecutors would be hard-pressed to root you out would also help.

I mean, if that's just it then where are the Pagans of the Alps, Pyranees, Anatolia-Armenia, Northern Scandenvia and Greece?

 

[Whiteshore]

I mean, if that's just it then where are the Pagans of the Alps, Pyranees, Anatolia-Armenia, Northern Scandenvia and Greece?

I did say "harder" not "impossible", didn't I? Besides, the Maniots did take longer to Christianize compared to their lowland counterparts. Ditto for the Basques and the Sami.

 

[PecuTheGreat]

Besides, the Maniots did take longer to Christianize compared to their lowland counterparts. Ditto for the Basques and the Sami.

Still Christianized in the First century (latest possible estimate is 800s) that's before even the Yazidi religion as it exists now was created.

There has to be more to it for all Pagan peoples in Europe even in the inaccessible mountains to be Christianized while Pagans remained in MENA.

 

[Orko]

I think it's worth mentioning that antisemitism (and any other form of persecution and discrimination, really) is a sociological, not theological, phenomenon. So it could really go either way with gnosticism, all depending on how it would become dominant and what sort of structures it would take. Especially with such an early PoD for Christianity, it's kinda hard to tell how this alternate Gnostic-dominant Christianity would end up looking like.