Greece gaining the following territories

[Tongera]

Greece gaining more territorries is a bit like what my father says about a United Ireland, The Republic cannot properly govern 26 counties, how could it possibly govern 32 properly?
Mind you there's one huge economic difference between Greece and Ireland - In Greece it was traditionally more or less up to yourself to pay tax or not, in Ireland the authorities were extremely good at collecting taxes from the little people!

But couldn't Greece and Ireland learn to govern the islands over time though?

 

[Vingilótë]

But couldn't Greece and Ireland learn to govern the islands over time though?

Well, Ireland hasn't done it yet. Neither Greece, really.

 

[Tongera]

Well, Ireland hasn't done it yet. Neither Greece, really.

True, but if Greece holds the territories i asked about, can i govern better from the increased revenue (i am thinking Constantinople mostly)?

 

[Vingilótë]

True, but if Greece holds the territories i asked about, can i govern better from the increased revenue (i am thinking Constantinople mostly)?

Greece's main problem wasn't a lack of revenue. There were numerous, more important, structural problems, which contributed to the lack of revenue, which more territory wouldn't have solved.

 

[Tongera]

Greece's main problem wasn't a lack of revenue. There were numerous, more important, structural problems, which contributed to the lack of revenue, which more territory wouldn't have solved.

Let's get back to how Greece can the territories i asked for, and not about Greek financial structural problems.

Could it be possible for Greece to gain the territory after the numerous wars the Ottomans had with the Russians after Greek Independence? Perhaps Greece gains a lot more territory after Independence (such as Thessalia, West Macedonia), which it can then use to gain further conquests from the declining Ottoman empire?

 

[Vingilótë]

By the end of the Russo-Turkish wars, the Ottoman Empire had lost virtually all its territory in Europe, bar the straits. That won't fall, not until the Ottomans fall, and certainly not without the other Great Powers objecting to such a destabilizing balance of power, and territory on the other side of the Aegean will be difficult to take and hold without it. Your best chance is right after WWI, when the Ottoman Empire is being carved up by the victorious Entente. A Turkish fuckup during their independence war, that's what you need. The Entente will be of little use, to drive the Ottomans to the point where this is possible would inevitably have exhausted the Entente as well.

 

[Tongera]

By the end of the Russo-Turkish wars, the Ottoman Empire had lost virtually all its territory in Europe, bar the straits. That won't fall, not until the Ottomans fall, and certainly not without the other Great Powers objecting to such a destabilizing balance of power, and territory on the other side of the Aegean will be difficult to take and hold without it. Your best chance is right after WWI, when the Ottoman Empire is being carved up by the victorious Entente. A Turkish fuckup during their independence war, that's what you need. The Entente will be of little use, to drive the Ottomans to the point where this is possible would inevitably have exhausted the Entente as well.

Like i said when Greece gains independence from the Ottoman Empire, it could gain a lot more territory, like Thessalia and West Macedonia, which it could use then later to gain the territorie's i asked for. However it would help if Greece gain some of the territories i asked for before the First World War, all of Thrace except for Constantinople for example. Question how to get Greece the islands in the Aegan, Cyprus and Constantinople itself, it's got to do it when the Great Powers don't object, and especially when Russia doesn't objects or can't do anything for Greece to gain Constantinople. I have no idea how Greece gain Cyprus or some of the islands in the Aegan, anyone have any ideas?

 

[Vingilótë]

Like i said when Greece gains independence from the Ottoman Empire, it could gain a lot more territory, like Thessalia and West Macedonia, which it could use then later to gain the territorie's i asked for. However it would help if Greece gain some of the territories i asked for before the First World War, all of Thrace except for Constantinople for example. Question how to get Greece the islands in the Aegan, Cyprus and Constantinople itself, it's got to do it when the Great Powers don't object, and especially when Russia doesn't objects or can't do anything for Greece to gain Constantinople. I have no idea how Greece gain Cyprus or some of the islands in the Aegan, anyone have any ideas?

At this point, I'm going to have to admit that my knowledge of this area of history is limited up to this point. I'm afraid that I'm not certain how to parse the politics in this area beyond the very general I've done so far.

 

[MUC]

Question how to get Greece the islands in the Aegan, Cyprus and Constantinople itself, it's got to do it when the Great Powers don't object, and especially when Russia doesn't objects or can't do anything for Greece to gain Constantinople. I have no idea how Greece gain Cyprus or some of the islands in the Aegan, anyone have any ideas?

The Balkan wars take place earlier than in OTL and Greece performs even better?

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Unfortunately that leaves Greece with serious grudges from Bulgaria, Serbia and possibly Albania or even Italy on top of Turkey.


As for Greek independence, they only won because of the involvment of the British, Russians and French so an expanded territory isn't at all likely. Russia wants much of what Greece wants and Great Britain considers Greece to be an irritant, at best.

 

[Andreas]

Note a POD: Venizelos has total power in Greece since 1912 (that means that Constantine I is somehow out of the game)!

I'm not saying that is conclusive, but there's a lot of chance that it works.

Balkan wars: Greece gains what she did in OTL, but with smaller casualties (no so many frontal assaults ordered by not-so-good marshal Constantine)
1913-1915: With less political turbulences than OTL (missing Constantine), Greece rebuilds faster after the Balkan wars.
1915-1918: Greece joins Entente in 1915 during the Gallipoli campaign, which now has a good chance to succeed, and if that happens the Greek army is in Constantinople (with the Entente troops) probably in 1916 or early 1917, with Bulgaria possibly neutralised or in Entente's side (as was the actual plot by the Entente and Venizelos).
1918-1919: Greece probably now hasn't the obligation to participate in the Crimean campaign of the Russian Civil War, but holds an operation to bring the Greeks of Ukraine to Greece and newly occupied teritories (including Constantinople).
1919-1921: The Asia Minor Campaign. Either with or without Kemal, the Turks are going to react. The outcome of the Anatolian war isn't sure at all, despite the differences with OTL, but: 1. Greece now does not face the dislike of British, French and Russians, 2. The army officer ranks are undisturbed, 3. Venizelos' diplomatic genius can find a way out even if things go badly.
So I can see either Greece hold Eastern Thrace and Smyrna, or just Eastern Thrace at least, with the Greek population (1.000.000) of Anatolia flowing there and Constantinople, which, of course, with Gallipoli, form the international zone of the Straits.
After all these, I can't see why Greece cannot gain Northern Epirus and Cypruss post WW II...

Nevertheless, I can't see Greece gaining the Straits as direct posession, but a "protection mandate" over the International zone is plausible...

 

[Simreeve]

Note a POD: Venizelos has total power in Greece since 1912 (that means that Constantine I is somehow out of the game)!

I'm not saying that is conclusive, but there's a lot of chance that it works.

Balkan wars: Greece gains what she did in OTL, but with smaller casualties (no so many frontal assaults ordered by not-so-good marshal Constantine)
1913-1915: With less political turbulences than OTL (missing Constantine), Greece rebuilds faster after the Balkan wars.
1915-1918: Greece joins Entente in 1915 during the Gallipoli campaign, which now has a good chance to succeed, and if that happens the Greek army is in Constantinople (with the Entente troops) probably in 1916 or early 1917, with Bulgaria possibly neutralised or in Entente's side (as was the actual plot by the Entente and Venizelos).

If Greece is good enough for those bits then maybe it could get Cyprus as a part of its price for entering the war... although probably with the handover delayed until afterwards, and depending on results...

 

[Grimm Reaper]

@1930: Having rebuilt militarily Turkey retakes the Greek territory in Anatolia and expels the Greek population.

@1941: OTL Turkish borders restored per agreement with Nazi Germany after the fall of Greece. Greek population expelled...again. Great Britain endorses the move to avoid a two front war in the Middle East.

 

[lukedalton]

Note a POD: Venizelos has total power in Greece since 1912 (that means that Constantine I is somehow out of the game)!

I'm not saying that is conclusive, but there's a lot of chance that it works.

Balkan wars: Greece gains what she did in OTL, but with smaller casualties (no so many frontal assaults ordered by not-so-good marshal Constantine)
1913-1915: With less political turbulences than OTL (missing Constantine), Greece rebuilds faster after the Balkan wars.
1915-1918: Greece joins Entente in 1915 during the Gallipoli campaign, which now has a good chance to succeed, and if that happens the Greek army is in Constantinople (with the Entente troops) probably in 1916 or early 1917, with Bulgaria possibly neutralised or in Entente's side (as was the actual plot by the Entente and Venizelos).
1918-1919: Greece probably now hasn't the obligation to participate in the Crimean campaign of the Russian Civil War, but holds an operation to bring the Greeks of Ukraine to Greece and newly occupied teritories (including Constantinople).
1919-1921: The Asia Minor Campaign. Either with or without Kemal, the Turks are going to react. The outcome of the Anatolian war isn't sure at all, despite the differences with OTL, but: 1. Greece now does not face the dislike of British, French and Russians, 2. The army officer ranks are undisturbed, 3. Venizelos' diplomatic genius can find a way out even if things go badly.
So I can see either Greece hold Eastern Thrace and Smyrna, or just Eastern Thrace at least, with the Greek population (1.000.000) of Anatolia flowing there and Constantinople, which, of course, with Gallipoli, form the international zone of the Straits.
After all these, I can't see why Greece cannot gain Northern Epirus and Cypruss post WW II...

Nevertheless, I can't see Greece gaining the Straits as direct posession, but a "protection mandate" over the International zone is plausible...

Problem with a more succesfull Gallipoli and the Greece entere the war in 15, now the A-H diplomats have more incentive to make serious proposal to Italy to mantain a CP leaning neutrality, and Italy with Greece immediately in the entente side and with overlapping interesting can be less inclined to side against the CP...and a italian neutrality can bring a lot of butterfly.

 

[Dementor]

@1930: Having rebuilt militarily Turkey retakes the Greek territory in Anatolia and expels the Greek population.

It seems unlikely that Turkey would be permitted to overturn what is probably a treaty signed by the Great powers just like that.

@1941: OTL Turkish borders restored per agreement with Nazi Germany after the fall of Greece. Greek population expelled...again. Great Britain endorses the move to avoid a two front war in the Middle East.

And then Turkey is forced to return everything at the end of WWII. Or alternatively Greece becomes a Communist country.

 

[Dementor]

Unfortunately that leaves Greece with serious grudges from Bulgaria, Serbia and possibly Albania or even Italy on top of Turkey.

You mean like in OTL (excepting Serbia, but there is no reason for it to have bad relations with Greece)?

 

[Tongera]

@1930: Having rebuilt militarily Turkey retakes the Greek territory in Anatolia and expels the Greek population.

@1941: OTL Turkish borders restored per agreement with Nazi Germany after the fall of Greece. Greek population expelled...again. Great Britain endorses the move to avoid a two front war in the Middle East.

Wasn't the Turkish armed forces weak up to about the 1970's? Anyhow wouldn't the Turks need a strong navy to cross the Bosphrous and to get to all the islands in the Aegan?

 

[Simreeve]

You mean like in OTL (excepting Serbia, but there is no reason for it to have bad relations with Greece)?

Potential disagreements about the division of 'Macedonia'? Maybe even Serbia trying to get a port on the Aegean for itself?

 

[Nassirisimo]

Wasn't the Turkish armed forces weak up to about the 1970's? Anyhow wouldn't the Turks need a strong navy to cross the Bosphrous and to get to all the islands in the Aegan?

Ill-equipped and not capable of a fully modern war, but still a relatively capable army. And at any rate, Greece has never won a war against Turkey/Ottoman Empire without help from others. Even in their best case scenario, they will not gain enough territory to act as a base significant enough to militarily hold their own against the Turks. Turkey is simply too big compared to Greece.

 

[Tongera]

Ill-equipped and not capable of a fully modern war, but still a relatively capable army. And at any rate, Greece has never won a war against Turkey/Ottoman Empire without help from others. Even in their best case scenario, they will not gain enough territory to act as a base significant enough to militarily hold their own against the Turks. Turkey is simply too big compared to Greece.

True, but if the Greek navy can stop the Turkish army from crossing into Thrace and Cyprus, then Turkey can't really defend itself or attack to regain the territory.