Germanisation of the Conquered Peoples

[Campbell1004]

This is a World War Two thread.

Let us say that Hitler lets his generals run their war, and most of the Royal Army is captured at Dunkirk. Furthermore, Russia is never invaded; the United States never enters the war and Germany is able to pull off Operation Sea Mammal.

In short, the Nazis win the war.

"Oh wow Campbell1004, way to be a noob with a Nazi-win scenario."

Hey now, critic, silence yourself. This isn't about how the Nazis won the war, this is about what they did after the war.

"Oh, an alternate cold war thread, how original."

Be quiet you, did you even read the title? This thread is about the Germanisation of conquered countries under the Nazi regime.

How long before all the French people are speaking German as their first language? How long until there aren't any "French" people left? Which late-nationality holds out the longest? Which integrates itself easily enough?

P.S. Assume that the Nazi Empire doesn't fall due to internal troubles.

 

[Russell]

You would need to wait for the existing generations to die off first for a start - few people will willingly give up the language that they have spoken since birth, no matter how hard you make them. 100 years plus at least. Even then I doubt that everyone will speak only German.

Incidentaly - it's not the "Royal Army." While both the navy and airforce bear the title of "Royal" this is because they are in theory the personal military of the Queen (although they answer to to the Ministry of Defence and then in turn, parliament. The army on the other hand is the army Parliament (although the monarch is the nominal head) as the monarch needs permision to raise and maintain the army from parliament. It's all to do with the outcome of the Wars of the Three Kingdoms and the eventual resotration of the monarchy.

Russell

 

[Ziomatrix]

As in Germanisation Literally?

If how Nazi Germany interacted with Fascist Italy as well as establishing Vichy France, the Slovak state and Croat one among a slew of other vassals is that the Nazi's plans to "Germanify" all of Europe are a myth. Sure if they had it their way there would be a German superstate that stretched as far north as the tip of Denmark, westward as Poland along with parts of the former Czechoslovakia, cutting through the Rhineland and extending down to Switzerland but besides that their aim seemed to be to establish many small but hypernationalist puppet states. These states such as Vichy France, Fascist Slovak State, Croats, Albanians, Romanians and beyond would have their own respective languages, cultures, religions as well as creeds to uphold above all others, with Germans getting a free pass. Of course other ethnicities who the Nazis perceived stood against them or the "allies" they chose would be eliminated. But when it comes to finance and defense it is Deutschland Uber Alles.

Some argue that today's Federal Republic of Germany OTL is still pursuing a similar policy in some respects. I don't of course 100% stand by those conjectures but they should fill you in on how Nazi Germany was intent on establishing its empirical rule in Europe through not just by trying to nakedly impose its will overall but with proven strategies in imperialism such as divide and conquer.

 

[The Kiat]

If you're going to have a successful invasion of Britain, you might want to move the PoD to Before 1900, because Germany is lacking a few things, such as a functional navy, that would take more than a few years to develop. I don't think they were overly interested in assimilating the Slavs, just enslaving or exterminating them.

 

[Typo]

There was no plan to Germanify France or most of the west, Germanization was a policy to be applied to Poland and eastwards.

 

[Beer]

Some argue that today's Federal Republic of Germany OTL is still pursuing a similar policy in some respects. I don't of course 100% stand by those conjectures but they should fill you in on how Nazi Germany was intent on establishing its empirical rule in Europe through not just by trying to nakedly impose its will overall but with proven strategies in imperialism such as divide and conquer.

I read the link provided by Ziomatrix and can say with conviction it´s a hissing fit by those who think GB can do no wrong, hate Germany and see it as a scapegoat for anything not going into Britains favour.
The whole thing is full of skewed and biased, one-sided arguments (many ripped out of context and/or from dubious sources, some made up to look scientific while still being nothing more than personal opinions), aimed to inspire hate of Germany.
This concoction on the base level of war propaganda nearly made me throw up my morning coffee. Unfortunately i don´t have the time today to counter it. Just one thing for starters: As much as some factions in GB see themselves as the infallible navel of earth, Versailles was an unjust piece of garbage kind of "treaty" and one of the main reasons for WW2! Even french marshall Foch said back then: "This is no peace treaty..." He knew how unjust Versailles was.

I don't think they were overly interested in assimilating the Slavs, just enslaving or exterminating them.

In the west, Hitler and his Regime would have only made minor steps, like german as an official language and clock settings. (Funny detail: In OTL after WW2 France did not return to GMT, they kept MEZ {MET for the non german speakers}) In the east, there were several layers planned by the Nazis. Slavic lands with germanic influx, like the Czechs, would have been lucky in comparison what Hitler planned for "slavs only" countries. The Czechs considered Arian/halfway Arian would have been assimilated, the rest made serfs. Regions like eastern Poland, expulsion and/or made serfs would have been just the beginning.

 

[Monty Burns]

There was no plan to Germanify France or most of the west, Germanization was a policy to be applied to Poland and eastwards.

It all depends on what "Germanization" means. In the East, it's all anout Germanization of the land, whereas the local population is to be killed, enslaved and those kids that seem "Aryan" enough would be raised by Nazis. AFAIK there were long-term plans to "reunite" the Aryan race, that's why there were Reichskommissariats in the western, "germanic" countries. These, probably including Britain and Scandinavia, should be merged with Germany. But I think it would be sufficient for those to speak German as a second language. The Nazis wouldn't destroy a related "Aryan culture", hence they wouldn't destroy local languages.

 

[kasumigenx]

It all depends on what "Germanization" means. In the East, it's all anout Germanization of the land, whereas the local population is to be killed, enslaved and those kids that seem "Aryan" enough would be raised by Nazis. AFAIK there were long-term plans to "reunite" the Aryan race, that's why there were Reichskommissariats in the western, "germanic" countries. These, probably including Britain and Scandinavia, should be merged with Germany. But I think it would be sufficient for those to speak German as a second language. The Nazis wouldn't destroy a related "Aryan culture", hence they wouldn't destroy local languages.

Hitler can use Catalans/Occitans who were oppressed by the french and reverse their status in france with the french.

 

[Monty Burns]

Hitler can use Catalans/Occitans who were oppressed by the french and reverse their status in france with the french.

But wouldn't Nazi ideology tell that Northern French are "more Aryan" than Catalans/Occitans?

 

[kasumigenx]

But wouldn't Nazi ideology tell that Northern French are "more Aryan" than Catalans/Occitans?

Well,yeah...Occitans/Catalans were oppressed he can use them against the french like Mussolini did to Albanians.

 

[shillinger]

Some argue that today's Federal Republic of Germany OTL is still pursuing a similar policy in some respects. I don't of course 100% stand by those conjectures but they should fill you in on how Nazi Germany was intent on establishing its empirical rule in Europe through not just by trying to nakedly impose its will overall but with proven strategies in imperialism such as divide and conquer.

Ah, ye olde "eternal Nazi conspiracy" theory. Cracks me up every time.

 

[carlton_bach]

But wouldn't Nazi ideology tell that Northern French are "more Aryan" than Catalans/Occitans?

Nazi ideology would say whatever the people currently in power want it to say. Seriously, there was no scientific basis for it anyway. Look at how Germanisation was handled in the various part of Poland for examples of how far that could go.

But as others pointed out, Germanising France was never intended. Even the nutziest schemes involved only ripping out big chunks of its eastern territory to turn over to the SS.

 

[Typo]

The whole "Aryan" designation thing is acttually quite arbitary and as long as its not the Jews or the Slavs Hitler was pretty open to fit the designation to the political situation

 

[shillinger]

How long before all the French people are speaking German as their first language? How long until there aren't any "French" people left? Which late-nationality holds out the longest? Which integrates itself easily enough?

At best, German will become what English is today. I doubt the Nazis would have "Germanised" the eternety of Europe. Im not even sure if that was one of their goals. They were generally more interested in Lebensraum then Germanising the West.

 

[Jotun]

Some argue that today's Federal Republic of Germany OTL is still pursuing a similar policy in some respects.

Wow...just...wow. I am at a loss for words. I have rarely read such a mass of Germanophobic and EU-phobic mass of dung. No, I am not even to discuss the respective points Mr Emory tries to make.
I shouldn't but I am truly pissed off now...gah...whatever that guy is smoking, he should smoke less.

 

[Beer]

Wow...just...wow. I am at a loss for words. I have rarely read such a mass of Germanophobic and EU-phobic mass of dung. No, I am not even to discuss the respective points Mr Emory tries to make.
I shouldn't but I am truly pissed off now...gah...whatever that guy is smoking, he should smoke less.

Hi, Jotun! I was similary pissed off, but your tip with less smoking **** won´t help Mr Emory´s brain. You cannot save what´s not there in the first place. I´ve seen tamer war propaganda in history lessons.

 

[Father Sergey Ryzhkov]

The Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and probably Britain would most likely be entirely German by now. The population excesses would colonize Eastern Europe, which would be made easier as Slavic population continues to decrease. Still, the culture of these lands would be predominantly German (any indigenous culture being eradicated).

As for France, I can imagine some sort of Germanization similar to OTL Americanization, i.e. German movies, music, video games, getting higher education in Germany considered prestige etc. That of course would not mean outright germanization, but French cultural tradition could easily deteriorate. Nazi-supervised school education would make the French a nation with inferiority complex, which would not help things much. The same could happen in Italy, though on a smaller scale.

 

[I Blame Communism]

Well,yeah...Occitans/Catalans were oppressed he can use them against the french like Mussolini did to Albanians.

Maybe a tiny number of nationalists regarded themselves as "opressed", but there was next to no national consciousness among southern Frenchmen, whatever their history and dialect, of any different nationality (they were opressed by Paris, same as the Normans and the Picards ). Given that Nazi cahoots with the (somewhat) more serious Breton movement (and on our side of the ditch, treachery by some radical "Celtic nationalists" including the IRA) went nowhere, attempts to "re-Occitanise" the south are really not worth the bother.

My predictions about "Germanistion" os various flavours in a hypothetical somehow freezing the borders from shortly before Barbarossa (unlikely, but it covers all bases):

- Ongoing efforts to fully crush any non-Germanness among the Altreich's small populations of Danes, Poles, Lithuanians, Sorbs, Slovenes etcetera. The Poles get mixed up with their compatriots over the border; the rest are still just victims of complete non-recognition and aggressive promotion of German language and culture in all walks of life, but no physical assault.

- Alsace-Lorraine and other western bits and bobs like Luxembourg integrated into German society and subject to much the same treatment for local language, culture, and national feeling.

- The annexed portions of Poland to be "fully Germanised" in a matter of decades by expulsion, colonisation, murder and engineered starvation, and forced assimilation of "Aryans" (including abduction of children). As carlton says, the Nazis knew what they were planning but were very schizophrenic in implementing it.

- The Czechs to be gradually Germanised, mainly by forced assimilation (but I wouldn't rule out a resort to colonial settlement or engineered starvation).

- Annexed Slovene lands likely to share the fate of the Czechs.

- Client states (including France, also Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, and the various quislings in Yugoslavia and Greece) left alone, and their Germans encouraged to move to the Reich and help Germanise other regions. "Encouragement" may be typically Nazi and involve clubs.

- Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Belgium are the big questions. I'd imagine a permenant arrangement of effectively colonial control from Berlin with an extensive "public face" of entirely Nazified local fascists and quislings. In this context, school teaching will promote German as a second language, German history emphasised, and economic contact with the Altreich encourages with the aim of fostering German language and national feeling in the long term.