German Communism?

Saepe Fidelis

What if Germany had gone communist in 1919 rather than managing to struggle on as the Weimar Republic?

Given that independent social democrats were in favour of the democratization of heavy industry, nationalization seems inevitable, but would this help the economy or hinder it? Hell, could any sort of democracy exist at all?

I think that if there wasn't a Russian Revolution a German revolution would be more likely. They wouldn't have an example to follow, but there's be less ingrained fear of socialism, and without Leninism being the 'default' revolutionary ideology, there could be more democratic and less brutal forms of communist rule, especially in a fairly wealthy country, at least compared to Russia.

So could it happen and if so would it be good or bad for Germany?
 

SlickWilly

A lot of Trotsyists maintain that, a wealthy nation, eg Germany( it was even after WW1 much richer than Russia) with a communist government would prove that a communist state does not have to turn Stallinist inevitably! But such a notion is most certainly up for debate!
 

informationfan

Banned
Saepe Fidelis said:
What if Germany had gone communist in 1919 rather than managing to struggle on as the Weimar Republic?

Given that independent social democrats were in favour of the democratization of heavy industry, nationalization seems inevitable, but would this help the economy or hinder it? Hell, could any sort of democracy exist at all?

I think that if there wasn't a Russian Revolution a German revolution would be more likely. They wouldn't have an example to follow, but there's be less ingrained fear of socialism, and without Leninism being the 'default' revolutionary ideology, there could be more democratic and less brutal forms of communist rule, especially in a fairly wealthy country, at least compared to Russia.

So could it happen and if so would it be good or bad for Germany?
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the communists were quite brutal guys... germany went commuism and totalitarism is established...

i doubt that the entente will allow this... so you combine a war with the ideology.... very bloody...

if the entente look away, commuist germany and commuist russia try to take control of eastern europe... with communists in the german government, they will not pay one goldmark... so the entente try to take the rhineland... but this lead to war - depending in what year - the russians crush the poles and help their communist brothers, so basically you have ww2 with red-germany , red-russia, red-taken poland and the rest of eastern europe vers. france, uk, netherlands, belgium.... this look not good for the war weary entente...

without payment british and french industry collapse...

the socialistic european community could come to life...
 

Saepe Fidelis

informationfan said:
the communists were quite brutal guys... germany went commuism and totalitarism is established...

i doubt that the entente will allow this... so you combine a war with the ideology.... very bloody...

if the entente look away, commuist germany and commuist russia try to take control of eastern europe... with communists in the german government, they will not pay one goldmark... so the entente try to take the rhineland... but this lead to war - depending in what year - the russians crush the poles and help their communist brothers, so basically you have ww2 with red-germany , red-russia, red-taken poland and the rest of eastern europe vers. france, uk, netherlands, belgium.... this look not good for the war weary entente...

without payment british and french industry collapse...

the socialistic european community could come to life...
Click to expand...

Given that Germany devolved into civil war for two years and the Allies did nothing, I doubt they'd intervene. They were probably more war-weary than the Germans because they didn't have the 'stabbed in the back' mentality which many in Germany had (not saying all, but it was certainly there).

Besides, Germany had a longer tradition of social democracy than Russia; I can hardly see the social democrat party turning into raving Bolsheviks; most socialists were rather less extreme than their Russian counterparts and so I reckon that there was probably more chance of a leftist democracy a la Sweden than a dictatorship. But then I'm an old lefty, so I'm probably dead wrong :eek:
 

The Red

SlickWilly said:
A lot of Trotsyists maintain that, a wealthy nation, eg Germany( it was even after WW1 much richer than Russia) with a communist government would prove that a communist state does not have to turn Stallinist inevitably! But such a notion is most certainly up for debate!
Click to expand...

Not too get nitpicky but there are no communist states, a communist system removes the state.

Those nations which use the Nordic Model have proven this theory more or less right however, socialism can be incredibly successful when it blossoms on a stable economy.
 

The Ubbergeek

You can have aa Commnuist Statism. Like you can have an Anarcho-socialism.

Like Libertarism in Anarcho-Capitalism vs Fascism.
 

Helicon One

Saepe Fidelis said:
Given that Germany devolved into civil war for two years and the Allies did nothing, I doubt they'd intervene.
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Germans turning each other for a while is fine by the Allies, since it keeps Germany weak and un-threatening. A developed, advanced Germany adopting Communism, possibly hooking up with the USSR, and starting to either directly or indirectly stir up the proles in capitalist European neighbours is a much more serious state of affairs.
 

Saepe Fidelis

Helicon One said:
Germans turning each other for a while is fine by the Allies, since it keeps Germany weak and un-threatening. A developed, advanced Germany adopting Communism, possibly hooking up with the USSR, and starting to either directly or indirectly stir up the proles in capitalist European neighbours is a much more serious state of affairs.
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I've half-stated that there wouldn't be a Bolshevik Revolution, although if there were to be one then yes, it would be very scary, especially if both became dominated by Trotskyites (very likely if Germany fell given Trotsky's views of on world revolution).
 

MAlexMatt

Banned
The Red said:
Did I say he was?
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I'm just saying, the existence of an extensive welfare state doesn't make a country socialist. The modern Nordic countries are some of the most liberal in the world, and some of them are in many ways freer economically than the United States or the United Kingdom. Unless socialist just means 'of or by a party calling itself social democrat', they aren't really socialist.

The Nordic countries used to be far more socialist but they've been moving away from central planning and state control of the economy since the 70's, just like every other nation across the world.
 

wolf_brother

Banned
A socialist state or economy simply means the workers control the means of production. That's is, period, end of story. If you don't have the workers in control, you don't have socialism. Anything short of that is just grades of liberalism influenced by socialist doctrine - but it's not socialism.

Now, to get the reds to win in the German Civil War you're doing to need a significant POD to weaken the imperialists. Something to keep the soldiers occupied so that they can't fight the revolutionaries; either they're still fighting on the front lines, they sit out the revolution, or they actively join the revolution.
 

Saepe Fidelis

wolf_brother said:
A socialist state or economy simply means the workers control the means of production. That's is, period, end of story. If you don't have the workers in control, you don't have socialism. Anything short of that is just grades of liberalism influenced by socialist doctrine - but it's not socialism.

Now, to get the reds to win in the German Civil War you're doing to need a significant POD to weaken the imperialists. Something to keep the soldiers occupied so that they can't fight the revolutionaries; either they're still fighting on the front lines, they sit out the revolution, or they actively join the revolution.
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Bigger Kiel Uprising perhaps?

And the Independent Social Democrats were in favour of the democratization of labour, as were the revolutionary shop stewards.
 
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