Development of Ottoman Empire without Crimean War

How would the Ottoman Empire have developed, had it not been involved in the Crimean War?
The war was eventually "won", but it left the Ottoman Empire extremely indebted to foreign / Western governments, and it had to absorb over a hundred thousand Crimean Tatar refugees.
 
without the Crimean war the empire would be economically healthy
this is true but also more vulnerable to Russian aggression as it is not admitted to the congress system (not that they have done much to prevent this) plus it would also be much less Muslim because it is true that the refugees who asked for asylum in the end did more harm than good but the state settled them in important areas from an strategic point of view (see Eastern Anatolia and Thrace), for the Ottomans it would have been better if they agreed with the Russians for an exchange of population (it's bad to say with today's morals, but for the time it was a normal thing) the former offer to welcome the Tartars, Turks and other Muslims fleeing the Tsar, the latter the Orthodox unwanted by the sultan (even if I would give a suggestion for a previous Pod during the Greek war of independence ( in conjunction with the Russo-Turkish War of 1829 - 33 )
, the Ottomans with the support of the other great powers had to give an ultimatum to the Russians, namely between choosing to support the Greeks or the Serbs, c dare doing one of the two peoples would be disappointed in the Russians) with a Pod in the spring of nations I don't know how to help you, for sure maybe the Russians will see to his rescue (very unlikely, almost impossible but given how much Nicholas I wanted to be the gendarme of Europe against revolutions I don't excluding them altogether) or they could take advantage of it for a military campaign against them, among this we need to keep an eye on what happens to Austria (perhaps the Ottomans take advantage of it to stop the civil war in Lebanon and clean up the last remaining ayans in Anatolia, a first railway)
 
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without the Crimean war the empire would be less unlawful this is true but also more vulnerable to Russian aggression as it is not admitted to the congress system (not that they have done much to prevent this) plus it would also be much less Muslim because it is true that the refugees who asked for asylum in the end did more harm than good but the state settled them in important areas from an strategic point of view (see Eastern Anatolia and Thrace), for the Ottomans it would have been better if they agreed with the Russians for an exchange of population (it's bad to say with today's morals, but for the time it was a normal thing) the former offer to welcome the Tartars, Turks and other Muslims fleeing the Tsar, the latter the Orthodox unwanted by the sultan (even if I would give a suggestion for a previous Pod during the Greek war of independence ( in conjunction with the Russo-Turkish War of 1829 - 33 )
, the Ottomans with the support of the other great powers had to give an ultimatum to the Russians, namely between choosing to support the Greeks or the Serbs, c dare doing one of the two peoples would be disappointed in the Russians)
Western support was never unequivocal and evaporated after Lebanon and Bulgaria anyway... there was just too much "Christian" suprematist thinking around at that time.

But what do you mean by "the empire would be less unlawful"?

I know that a PoD around 1830 would be a lot more significant for the Ottomans. But I am asking in preparation for an 1848 TL, so PoDs before 1848 are excluded for me.
 
On balance the Crimean War was probably a bad thing for the Ottomans, even though they were on the winning side. The war was the start of the Ottoman debt problem that would a reach breaking point in the 1870s, and the huge amount of refugees that had to be absorbed led to all sorts of ethnic unrest in the Balkans. Without these factors the Ottomans are more likely to whether the Near Eastern crisis in the 1870s. If the early to mid 1870s can go better for the Ottomans and the situation in the Balkans managed before it gets out of hand then the European powers may not become so universally hostile to the OE. In OTL basically everything possible went wrong for the Ottomans around the time and that made it possible for Russia to get away with the 1878 war from which the Ottomans never recovered
 
On balance the Crimean War was probably a bad thing for the Ottomans, even though they were on the winning side. The war was the start of the Ottoman debt problem that would a reach breaking point in the 1870s, and the huge amount of refugees that had to be absorbed led to all sorts of ethnic unrest in the Balkans. Without these factors the Ottomans are more likely to whether the Near Eastern crisis in the 1870s. If the early to mid 1870s can go better for the Ottomans and the situation in the Balkans managed before it gets out of hand then the European powers may not become so universally hostile to the OE. In OTL basically everything possible went wrong for the Ottomans around the time and that made it possible for Russia to get away with the 1878 war from which the Ottomans never recovered
Sounds good, let's run with that.

In this scenario, how would the Balkans look by, say, the 1880s?
Russia and the OE clashed more or less every other decade - how long could a war be postponed?
And, if we assume on balance a better fortune for the Ottomans, what does that mean for how the empire looks internally at the turn of the century?
I know there are tons of possibilities, but how does a plausible trend look like?
 
Sounds good, let's run with that.

In this scenario, how would the Balkans look by, say, the 1880s?
Russia and the OE clashed more or less every other decade - how long could a war be postponed?
And, if we assume on balance a better fortune for the Ottomans, what does that mean for how the empire looks internally at the turn of the century?
I know there are tons of possibilities, but how does a plausible trend look like?
well Ottomanism together with the tanzimat continues to proceed with small but stable steps, the first industrialization of the Balkans is not destroyed (see Bulgaria and Macedonia)
we will certainly see the development of a more stable tax and banking system, perhaps with a re-discussion of the capitulations in a more equal version .
perhaps the construction of the railway in the Balkans and west Anatolia,and greater centralization in the eyalet of syria,
started and surely the Ottomans will proceed with the safety of the road of the Hejaz from the Wannabite and Saudi incursions
 
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So is the argument made here that the Russians *only* expelled masses of Crimean Tatar Muslims to the Ottoman Empire, because the Crimean War happened?

Otherwise Russia would have tolerated their continued residence in Crimea?

Does that sound right to @alexmilman and our other Russia experts?

How far back do we need to go to avert this refugee issue?

Simply avert the Allied invasion of Crimea itself, which only occurred after the Austrian ultimatum moved the scene of the Russo-Turkish fighting from the Danube and Thrace, by forcing Russian evacuation of the Danubian principalities?

Or only by averting Russo-Turkish fighting in 1853, and that decade, altogether?

The only way I can think of averting Russo-Turkish fighting in 1853, is by continuing deference to the Eastern Orthodox Church of protection of Ottoman Christians and control of Holy Places, and rejecting French demands for Roman Catholic control of same. And that seems like it would invite French bombardment of Constantinople and French Marine landings in other Ottoman cities, possibly an occupation of Palestine.
 
So is the argument made here that the Russians *only* expelled masses of Crimean Tatar Muslims to the Ottoman Empire, because the Crimean War happened?

AFAIK (and I can be wrong) the Crimean Tatars were not “expelled” like the Circassians. They were leaving the area in the noticeable numbers on their own will all the way to the reign of AII who forbade this practice fearing depopulation of the peninsula. The main reason was, AFAIK, the economy: conquest of the peninsula by CII was followed by the massive land grants to the connected people who did not have a clue about specifics of a local agriculture, crafts, etc. The result was a destruction of (almost) self-sufficient economy and the locals simply had nothing to do. The change happened only in the late XIX when the government decided to turn the Crimea into a resort and wine-making area. A huge influx of the tourists produced boost for the local agriculture and provided other areas of employment.

To be fair, the Tatars had been semi-officially accused of a disloyalty and presumably there was a sharp increase of the emigration in 1860-63. But, I repeat, this was not a government’s action. There was no single pro-/contra-official opinion. Then, again, the economics kicked in. During the CW the peninsula was under the military rule, aka, governed by the people who did not have a clue about the economic in general and the local specifics in particular as a result the area was devastated well beyond the theater of the military activities and, cherry on the top, the idiots in charge presumably dropped the traditional religious tolerance policy. Small wonder that the initial patriotic enthusiasm turned into a desire to get the hell out.



Otherwise Russia would have tolerated their continued residence in Crimea?

It did in OTL and when the region was turned into a resort, the (young male) Tatar guides were quite popular among the open-minded female tourists. 😉
Does that sound right to @alexmilman and our other Russia experts?
See above.
How far back do we need to go to avert this refugee issue?
Avoid the CW or simply implement a comprehensive state policy instead of leaving too much of an initiative to the local administration and the military appointees to the civic administrative positions.

Simply avert the Allied invasion of Crimea itself, which only occurred after the Austrian ultimatum moved the scene of the Russo-Turkish fighting from the Danube and Thrace, by forcing Russian evacuation of the Danubian principalities?
I’m not sure if somebody can give a meaningful answer to the question what exactly NI forgot in the Danubian provinces.
Or only by averting Russo-Turkish fighting in 1853, and that decade, altogether?
This would be the best idea because the war had been quite idiotic on the Russian side and probably equally idiotic on the Turkish as well.

The only way I can think of averting Russo-Turkish fighting in 1853, is by continuing deference to the Eastern Orthodox Church of protection of Ottoman Christians and control of Holy Places, and rejecting French demands for Roman Catholic control of same. And that seems like it would invite French bombardment of Constantinople and French Marine landings in other Ottoman cities, possibly an occupation of Palestine.
To start a war in mid-XIX over the issue of who is going to have the keys to some “holy places” sounds like a pure insanity. The clergies involved could agree on some split and then get engaged in a regular fistfight over the disputed <whatever> as was happening in the late XX. 😂

Why would Russian Empire care about Palestine and other wastelands when it was still in a process of conquering Caucasus and the CA and trying to establish a border on the Amur? Well, not to mention the trifles like the obsolete manufacturing, falling state income preventing a possibility to modernize army and navy , the serfs issue hanging in a limbo, etc.
 
well Ottomanism together with the tanzimat continues to proceed with small but stable steps,

Would it though? The Western allies really pushed the tanzimat in ways that the Ottomans were cautious about before the CW, particularly in terms of legal equality for Christians, which had far reaching effects, both the expected positive ones and other much more negative divisive ones. I'd be interested in thoughts on how tanzimat would develop absent the war.
 
AFAIK (and I can be wrong) the Crimean Tatars were not “expelled” like the Circassians. They were leaving the area in the noticeable numbers on their own will all the way to the reign of AII who forbade this practice fearing depopulation of the peninsula.

IIRC there was a good deal of forced internal resettlement during the war, particularly away from coastal districts. This and the general economic devastation in the peninsula led to considerable emigration as soon as it became possible.
 
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