As we all know, both America and France (despite having their revolutions within years of each other) have had very different fates historically, with France being the longest lasting continuous democracy in modern history, and America imfamously going through "revolving door regimes" for most of the late 18th and 19th centuries. Could it have gone the other way around?
DBWI: America and France trade fates?
- Thread starter ArKhan
- Start date
The American States is simply too culturally, ethnically and geographically divided to form any sort of long-lasting stable government.
I would believe in America and France switching places, just to have less of those damn Francowanks and more Ameriwanks for once...
A less expansionist USA might do the trick.
Lets say the USA gets beat up in 1812, not so bad it loses territory but rather it draws a stalemate. Then when it goes to war with Mexico in the 1860s *or maybe even sooner TTL* it has learned from its experiences, and restrains itself from annexing all of Mexico.
There we have butterflied away Quebec's disproportionate power within the USA and removed any stimulus *Mexican troops in New Orleans* for a Dictatorship.
France is easy enough, have the early wars of the Coalition go better for France, and France goes through with its batshit insane idea of invading Egypt *many timeliness on this* and loses. France grows here and shrinks there, combined with some Austro-Prussian treachery can have Napoleon seize the crown.
Lets say the USA gets beat up in 1812, not so bad it loses territory but rather it draws a stalemate. Then when it goes to war with Mexico in the 1860s *or maybe even sooner TTL* it has learned from its experiences, and restrains itself from annexing all of Mexico.
There we have butterflied away Quebec's disproportionate power within the USA and removed any stimulus *Mexican troops in New Orleans* for a Dictatorship.
France is easy enough, have the early wars of the Coalition go better for France, and France goes through with its batshit insane idea of invading Egypt *many timeliness on this* and loses. France grows here and shrinks there, combined with some Austro-Prussian treachery can have Napoleon seize the crown.
DISSIDENT
Banned
Not impossible.
France as we know it was founded in the Revolution and its leadership by the Marquis De Lafayette heading the Republic and giving it stable leadership, then stepping down in the manner of his mentor George Washington.
The "revolving door" regime problem in America stems from the fractious presidents and constitutional and regional conflicts after Washington's first two terms ended.
President Burr is a major author of the downfall of the Madison Constitutional Regime. His...power hunger caused significant upheaval.
The Madison Constitution was abolished after the second war with Britain.
Jackson formed a new Constitution but one centered too much around he as a man to outlast his death and one with significant economic restrictions owing to his hatred of banks.
The Red Thirties in America lead to a series of religious inspired civil uprisings, as movements in the Great Awakening sought political power and there were wars between the Federal Government and such militarized groups as the Nauvoo Legion. Though Jackson's empowerment of the executive allowed the government to crust the seccessionist religious movements in New York, Illinois and other states, popular outcry against the crackdown on trade lead to uprisings by merchants threatened by bankruptcy.
A new Constitution was written in Charleston and so on until the present where the US is under the Seventh Constitution and has been since the failure of General LeMay's coup d'etat attempt and units loyal to him were driven from Washington.
France as we know it was founded in the Revolution and its leadership by the Marquis De Lafayette heading the Republic and giving it stable leadership, then stepping down in the manner of his mentor George Washington.
The "revolving door" regime problem in America stems from the fractious presidents and constitutional and regional conflicts after Washington's first two terms ended.
President Burr is a major author of the downfall of the Madison Constitutional Regime. His...power hunger caused significant upheaval.
The Madison Constitution was abolished after the second war with Britain.
Jackson formed a new Constitution but one centered too much around he as a man to outlast his death and one with significant economic restrictions owing to his hatred of banks.
The Red Thirties in America lead to a series of religious inspired civil uprisings, as movements in the Great Awakening sought political power and there were wars between the Federal Government and such militarized groups as the Nauvoo Legion. Though Jackson's empowerment of the executive allowed the government to crust the seccessionist religious movements in New York, Illinois and other states, popular outcry against the crackdown on trade lead to uprisings by merchants threatened by bankruptcy.
A new Constitution was written in Charleston and so on until the present where the US is under the Seventh Constitution and has been since the failure of General LeMay's coup d'etat attempt and units loyal to him were driven from Washington.
I would believe in America and France switching places, just to have less of those damn Francowanks and more Ameriwanks for once...
No kidding. Why do so many people think that just because a place speaks English that it won't become any sort of power? Spanish and French places are definitely more successful IOTL, but Anglophone places could have had a shot too.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Well, if the British Empire would not have fallen in the Gentleman's Revolution, it would have continued as a World Power. Now, it's just known for messy successor States all over the Globe.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Emperor Teddy I brought much stability to America though. America's real problems began with the Red Shoes Revolution 1927.
Let's not remind ourselves of the death of Empress Alice, shall we? She was a perfectly benevolent Empress, and it was only the radicalism of those damn Debsists that resulted in her execution. "Oh, down with reactionism, blah blah blah.", completely ignoring the fact that the two-monarch Roosevelt Dynasty was one of the most progressive monarchies the world had seen. If anything, it was more like Roosevelt was just a life-long President. Sure, we didn't have elections, but it's not as if we were in Tsarist Russia, or something.
George Washington could have done what nearly every other revolutionary leader did and think that he was too special to give up power. He could have become President for Life and created an army of sycophants and cronies who carried out his wishes and used their power to steal and settle scores for themselves.
The US constitution would be just a farce like most of the Latin American ones became.
The American people would have felt cheated and there would be counter revolutions, foreign interventions and instability.
In France Louis XVI becomes more amenable to the demands of the bourgeoisie in 1789 and does not try to run away or make secret deals with foreign powers. So a Parliamentary democracy emerges.
BTW, I don't think the US is the longest unbroken democracy. America is a Representative Republic that has democratic elections. Also having 10-20% slave population no votes for women and most adult men not enfranchised for a long time does not constitute a democracy. On that basis you could argue the England is the oldest democracy (after all the Americans were initially fighting to have the same rights as an Englishman)or...... Iceland.
Spoken from an IC perspective.
I'm glad I was born in Canada.........At least we've had stability for the past 150 years or so.......
Here's why we're so great:
1. No major civil conflicts in this country, like ever.
2. Britain only fought with US once.......and they ran home like the cowards they were after a couple of our spies killed off James II and his Prussian entourage while they were strutting around in London{buncha bastards, these guys were...........James II was particularly notorious for being about as crooked as his original namesake of 2 centuries past}. They haven't threatened us since............we're not even part of the 'Commonwealth'{LOL}, and they haven't bothered us one bit.
3. Since our founding in 1848, this nation has only had one constitution.......not 7, as in America.. And we've never had emperors.........just Presidents.
4. We know how to keep our wanna-be terrorists under control.
5. There was no slavery, and women got the vote in 1898.
6. We can actually keep our word most of the time, with our allies, that is.
7. Our country has dealt with racism far better than the U.S.
8. Our expansion, although not without tragedy, was much less bloody than America's, and we actually tried to really make it up to the Native Americans.......Hell, the 46th parallel was practically given to us!{Thanks, U.S. President Fillmore. LOL.}
I'm glad I was born in Canada.........At least we've had stability for the past 150 years or so.......
Here's why we're so great:
1. No major civil conflicts in this country, like ever.
2. Britain only fought with US once.......and they ran home like the cowards they were after a couple of our spies killed off James II and his Prussian entourage while they were strutting around in London{buncha bastards, these guys were...........James II was particularly notorious for being about as crooked as his original namesake of 2 centuries past}. They haven't threatened us since............we're not even part of the 'Commonwealth'{LOL}, and they haven't bothered us one bit.
3. Since our founding in 1848, this nation has only had one constitution.......not 7, as in America.
. And we've never had emperors.........just Presidents. 4. We know how to keep our wanna-be terrorists under control.
5. There was no slavery, and women got the vote in 1898.
6. We can actually keep our word most of the time, with our allies, that is.
7. Our country has dealt with racism far better than the U.S.
8. Our expansion, although not without tragedy, was much less bloody than America's, and we actually tried to really make it up to the Native Americans.......Hell, the 46th parallel was practically given to us!{Thanks, U.S. President Fillmore. LOL.
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