Could "Israel" have been carved out of Germany?

SmartCraig1

Banned
Hello all. Firstly, cool site;)! Anyway I signed up a couple of days ago, so I figure I might as well post something- halfassed though it will likely be-so, here goes.

I had a thought, while considering the "morality of Israel's existence" issue... while the Palestinians had done little to nothing to justify their land being taken, the Germans had committed a crime against the Jews greater then any other in history. Thus, shouldn't German land(as opposed to Palestinian land) have been given to the Jews?

Certainly, it wouldn't have been unprecedented- the Russians expelled both Poles and Germans from lands that had historically been theirs(for example, Prussia, formerly German, became ethnically Polish and German).

So would it be possible for a similar thing to happen, with Germans being expelled from a certain region which would thus be settled by Jews?

I know, the Jews preffered Palestine- they had a historical claim to it, and they had for a long time had Zionist plans regarding the region- but perhaps if for some reason these plans could not come to fruition, they would be given former German territory instead? Don't know where it would be.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Eh. An Israel state in...Europe? Do you want to further anti-semitism? Especially in Germany? Wouldn't this, in effect, mean that the Nazis were right? At least, to the German People?

I still don't understand why they simply didn't find a good island somewhere, and send them there. Too much tension has been created because of the Palestinian choice.
 
I put this to some Jewish friends once. They were mostly uncomfortable with any suggestion that might undermine the legitimacy of Israel, but beyond that (as near as I could tell) they simply felt no connection to Germany. It's not about A homeland, it's about THAT homeland.

I don't suppose many Jews from outside of Germany would be necessarily drawn there. They'd probably just go to the US.
 

SmartCraig1

Banned
Meh, I was just suggesting this because it seems the Germans are the only people who deserve to have this happen to them(land taken and given to Jews).

Of course, what is "deserved" rarely makes much difference in politics.

Oh, and Nietsche, how would that work:confused:? Is their any island which is large enough?
 
Oh, and Nietsche, how would that work:confused:? Is their any island which is large enough?

Plenty. It's not as if Judaism has that many followers.

However, the idea of packing all the Jews off to some island is a bit distasteful, really. Perhaps you might see various nations willing to get educated productive immigrants. The South Africans, for example, might be happy to get more immigrants from Europe and might, say, open up free settlement areas. Same thing with Australia or New Zealand, maybe.
 

SmartCraig1

Banned
Plenty. It's not as if Judaism has that many followers.

However, the idea of packing all the Jews off to some island is a bit distasteful, really. Perhaps you might see various nations willing to get educated productive immigrants. The South Africans, for example, might be happy to get more immigrants from Europe and might, say, open up free settlement areas. Same thing with Australia or New Zealand, maybe.
Which Island would be both large enough and suitable?
 

ninebucks

Banned
Madagascar comes to mind.

Although I'm sure the Malagasy would have something to say about that.

Anyway, I don't think a territory within Europe would be acceptable. The common feeling since time immemorial was that Western European powers should always behave civilly towards each other, if not to other people from further away with strange ways and strange odours. Nazi Germany may have broken that etiquette, but two wrongs don't make a right. I'm not saying I agree with this, but these are imperialist people we're talking about here: its the prevalent ideology that White Europeans should always be treated better than people of other races, regardless of collective guilt.

Anyway, waving that aside, a German Israel would be very different to a Palestinian Israel. Its only going to attract a small number of Jews, for instance, without the Arab-Israeli wars, anti-semitism does not arise in the Arab world, and so the Arab countries will not start expelling their Jews; the Baghdadi and Marrakeshi Jews will stay put. So this Jewish state will essentially just be a Yiddish state. It will speak a language that is essentially mutually intelligible with German and will probably, after a generation of de-Nazification, end up seeing itself as German. So its possible that by the end of the Cold War they would be a reunion of three German states; Westdeutschland, Oestdeutschland and Yiddland.
 
Its only going to attract a small number of Jews, for instance.

Why would an "Israel in Germany" attract smaller number of Jews than Israel? There's modern infrastructure already in existence, good housing and farmland, presumably much industry already in place, no primitive conditions etc... Besides historical connection, what makes Israel more attractive?
 
Large enough, sure, but is it suitable- I mean, its not like the French will be happy about for one and anyway isn't the environment trash by the standards Jews are used to?
Well Palestine 50 years ago wasn't that great either yet by investing lots and lots of money they made it a rich and fertile region. Don't see why they couldn't do the same in Madagascar.
Regarding the French, i suppose they could sell the island or give it. A strong french jewish lobby might help, though i have no idea if one existed.
 
Why would an "Israel in Germany" attract smaller number of Jews than Israel? There's modern infrastructure already in existence, good housing and farmland, presumably much industry already in place, no primitive conditions etc... Besides historical connection, what makes Israel more attractive?

One of the problems is that very few Jews at the time wanted to stay in Germany, or move there. Of course, not being surrounded by Germans would have helped a bit, but they'd still be their neighbours. Israel, on the other hand, offered security as well as a fresh start.

If the Jewish homeland was to come out of Germany, it would have to be on the initiative of the Allies. There is not going to be a Jewish movement for it, and the only organised Jewish effort at the time is Zionism, so they have a huge starting advantage. I could see it happening (though it would be a very problematic undertaking and pretty stupid to boot). You would need to give them a border area with friendly neighbours and access to the sea. If it was written into Potsdam, you could see it being done as part of the territorial loss in the east, but how attractive is a Communist Israel going to be? A better idea might be either a swathe of the Rhineland or the North Sea coast and Weser and Elbe estuaries.

Either way, it's going to be very ugly for a long time. West Germany managed its Western integration largely through the convenient lie that the territorial losses and division were all the idea of Stalin and the Western Allies had been their friends all along, really. Take that away and you could see a much nastier Germany in the 50s and 60s.
 
The first pre condition for this is no Balfour declaration.

I think the second might be rather better relationships between the USSR and the West.

Of course fairly large numbers of Germans were driven from their homes in the aftermath of 1945. In retrospect this was understandable, forgivable but NOT just.
 
I think it's debatable whether Jewish Israel "took away" land from the Palestininans - settlements of European Jews were usually in Jewish areas of Palestine or in land bought from Palestinians. Muslim Palestinians usually weren't forced out, they just sold their land and used the money to live in a so far unused part of Palestine, or in a Muslim city.

Afaik, the 1948 war arose not even over Israel's independence - it arose over the question whether to allow the Jewish parts of Palestine unlimited immigration and whether to allow the Jews to buy Muslim owned land. Israel might just have become a state in a Muslim/Jewish federation, had the Muslims simply accepted a development which would not really have affected them in the long term anyways - there's only a very limited number of Jews on the Planet. Even if all of them came to Israel, the population balance in the area would still be in favor of the Muslims.

The existence of Israel as a Nation was a pretty unplanned result of unnecessary hostility, even though quite a few Jews would obviously prefer an independent Israel over a Jewish state in a Palestinian federation and were working towards that. But I'm pretty sure less nationalistic Jews, the English, and obviously the Muslims would have preferred the more moderate solution. A nation of Israel might have developed from that over time, but I see nothing bad in a development were a part of a country believes it's better off without the other part and declares independance - something like that shouldn't bother anyone, and I really don't understand what makes anyone think differently.

Also, what about all the land and homes Arab Jews had to leave after the creation of Israel? That's a real crime, but is hardly mentioned by all those self-proclaimed protectors of the poor innocent helpless Muslim Palestinians...

By now, after a few wars, usually initiated by surrounding Muslim states, the Muslim parts of Palestine are actually really bad to live in, with a lot of injustice happening. I'm just not sure whether the lives of the Jews in the area would be better if somehow the Muslims had won in one of those wars...

And when a Christian Europe gives Palestinians millions not only for food, but also for weapons each year, thus keeping the Palestinians from ever having to give up their intolerance against a Jewish state, then I'm not quite sure whether that's really humanitarian...

Did I also mention that surrounding Muslim countries do their best to keep Palestinians from coming to their places, even though there's more than enough unused land in most of them? Muslims seem not to be much better towards their Muslim brethren from other countries than Jews are towards Muslim Palestinians.

I'm pretty sure that both Europeans and Muslims help fuel anti-Jewish sentiments - the Europeans maybe mostly out of naivete, but the Muslims openly to increase their power over the area and to fuel anti-Jewish aggressoion - even at the cost of the Palestinian Muslims.

Thanks to not only Muslim animosity towards Israel, I don't believe it can survive forever as it is - even though, imo, it did nothing wrong. It let people in who needed a home, and was, for this "crime", subject to hostility during it's whole history. I don't see anything peaceful that can be done in this situation. Neither a retreat to the green border, nor even giving up Israel as a nation and making it an equal state in a Palestine federation would by now reduce tension - as it seems, it would only serve to justify even more aggression, as it would be seen as a Muslim victory.

If Israel had been carved out of parts of Germany, the much larger Christian population would always loom as a threat over "Yiddland". Also, in a Christian Europe, the Jews would always be seen as different from the rest of the continent. I suppose the only manageable way would have been to carve out a land for all the people who were hit by the intolerance of the Nazis - but that would leave Germany pretty much forced into playing the evil Nazi role eternally. All that in a world which usually sides with the aggressors and only has sympathies for the underdogs.

Real justice might have been to get the Germans into a situation like living among hostile surrounding nations. But unluckily, with about 60 million Germans at the time, of which less than 10% (another 20% being dead or abroad) would probably qualify as victims of the Nazis, there are not many places where the Germans could have been taken to. Not to mention that Christians usually wouldn't do that even with extremely bad Christians, that there were geopolitical interests considered far more important after WWII, and that it would cost astronomical amounts of money.

All in all, the fate of Judaism seems to be the fate of those who are a religious minority. Additionally, the rules of later religions (Christianity and Islam) often make their members succeed against the members of an older religion (Judaism), by using their peculiarities against them.

It's also unrealistic to assume Jews could just adapt their religion and suddenly become more popular - a more aggressive approach like that of a religion founded by a warrior would not be taken very well by the world community (see Sinai peninsula), and copying parts of Christian religion would be seen as subjecting to that. It's also unlikely that the Jews could suddenly convert millions of people to some form of Judaism - just look at what happened when millions of young people in the west showed sympathies with Baghwan.

As it is unrealistic for the world's religions to suddenly become tolerant towards other religions, or even become unimportant for people, like astrology, there's only eternal struggle. May the better one win.
 
Although I'm sure the Malagasy would have something to say about that.

Anyway, I don't think a territory within Europe would be acceptable. The common feeling since time immemorial was that Western European powers should always behave civilly towards each other, if not to other people from further away with strange ways and strange odours. Nazi Germany may have broken that etiquette, but two wrongs don't make a right. I'm not saying I agree with this, but these are imperialist people we're talking about here: its the prevalent ideology that White Europeans should always be treated better than people of other races, regardless of collective guilt.

Anyway, waving that aside, a German Israel would be very different to a Palestinian Israel. Its only going to attract a small number of Jews, for instance, without the Arab-Israeli wars, anti-semitism does not arise in the Arab world, and so the Arab countries will not start expelling their Jews; the Baghdadi and Marrakeshi Jews will stay put. So this Jewish state will essentially just be a Yiddish state. It will speak a language that is essentially mutually intelligible with German and will probably, after a generation of de-Nazification, end up seeing itself as German. So its possible that by the end of the Cold War they would be a reunion of three German states; Westdeutschland, Oestdeutschland and Yiddland.

Of course the Malagasy wouldn't have liked it, but I don't think at the time they would have been given much consideration.

I have always thought that a good POD for having an Israel not in the Middle East has to naturally be no Balfour Delcaration. Well at least not the sort of OTL. I think around this time many suggested Uganda as an alternative Israel. I think (apart from the fact that many Zionists opposed this) that would have been a better idea, as at that time Post-World War 1, it was relatively easy for Europeans to 'subdue' the African people, but Europeans had more trouble dealing with Arab states.
 

ninebucks

Banned
Why would an "Israel in Germany" attract smaller number of Jews than Israel? There's modern infrastructure already in existence, good housing and farmland, presumably much industry already in place, no primitive conditions etc... Besides historical connection, what makes Israel more attractive?

Reading is your friend. A German Israel would see fewer immigrants because there would be less displaced Jews from the Islamic world, OTL these Jews make up a plurality of the Israeli Jewish population. In TTL they would stay still. This German Israel would become a land for Yiddish-speakers, alienating Jews from elsewhere.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I think it's debatable whether Jewish Israel "took away" land from the Palestininans - settlements of European Jews were usually in Jewish areas of Palestine or in land bought from Palestinians. Muslim Palestinians usually weren't forced out, they just sold their land and used the money to live in a so far unused part of Palestine, or in a Muslim city.

Afaik, the 1948 war arose not even over Israel's independence - it arose over the question whether to allow the Jewish parts of Palestine unlimited immigration and whether to allow the Jews to buy Muslim owned land. Israel might just have become a state in a Muslim/Jewish federation, had the Muslims simply accepted a development which would not really have affected them in the long term anyways - there's only a very limited number of Jews on the Planet. Even if all of them came to Israel, the population balance in the area would still be in favor of the Muslims.

The existence of Israel as a Nation was a pretty unplanned result of unnecessary hostility, even though quite a few Jews would obviously prefer an independent Israel over a Jewish state in a Palestinian federation and were working towards that. But I'm pretty sure less nationalistic Jews, the English, and obviously the Muslims would have preferred the more moderate solution. A nation of Israel might have developed from that over time, but I see nothing bad in a development were a part of a country believes it's better off without the other part and declares independance - something like that shouldn't bother anyone, and I really don't understand what makes anyone think differently.

Also, what about all the land and homes Arab Jews had to leave after the creation of Israel? That's a real crime, but is hardly mentioned by all those self-proclaimed protectors of the poor innocent helpless Muslim Palestinians...

By now, after a few wars, usually initiated by surrounding Muslim states, the Muslim parts of Palestine are actually really bad to live in, with a lot of injustice happening. I'm just not sure whether the lives of the Jews in the area would be better if somehow the Muslims had won in one of those wars...

And when a Christian Europe gives Palestinians millions not only for food, but also for weapons each year, thus keeping the Palestinians from ever having to give up their intolerance against a Jewish state, then I'm not quite sure whether that's really humanitarian...

Did I also mention that surrounding Muslim countries do their best to keep Palestinians from coming to their places, even though there's more than enough unused land in most of them? Muslims seem not to be much better towards their Muslim brethren from other countries than Jews are towards Muslim Palestinians.

I'm pretty sure that both Europeans and Muslims help fuel anti-Jewish sentiments - the Europeans maybe mostly out of naivete, but the Muslims openly to increase their power over the area and to fuel anti-Jewish aggressoion - even at the cost of the Palestinian Muslims.

Thanks to not only Muslim animosity towards Israel, I don't believe it can survive forever as it is - even though, imo, it did nothing wrong. It let people in who needed a home, and was, for this "crime", subject to hostility during it's whole history. I don't see anything peaceful that can be done in this situation. Neither a retreat to the green border, nor even giving up Israel as a nation and making it an equal state in a Palestine federation would by now reduce tension - as it seems, it would only serve to justify even more aggression, as it would be seen as a Muslim victory.

If Israel had been carved out of parts of Germany, the much larger Christian population would always loom as a threat over "Yiddland". Also, in a Christian Europe, the Jews would always be seen as different from the rest of the continent. I suppose the only manageable way would have been to carve out a land for all the people who were hit by the intolerance of the Nazis - but that would leave Germany pretty much forced into playing the evil Nazi role eternally. All that in a world which usually sides with the aggressors and only has sympathies for the underdogs.

Real justice might have been to get the Germans into a situation like living among hostile surrounding nations. But unluckily, with about 60 million Germans at the time, of which less than 10% (another 20% being dead or abroad) would probably qualify as victims of the Nazis, there are not many places where the Germans could have been taken to. Not to mention that Christians usually wouldn't do that even with extremely bad Christians, that there were geopolitical interests considered far more important after WWII, and that it would cost astronomical amounts of money.

All in all, the fate of Judaism seems to be the fate of those who are a religious minority. Additionally, the rules of later religions (Christianity and Islam) often make their members succeed against the members of an older religion (Judaism), by using their peculiarities against them.

It's also unrealistic to assume Jews could just adapt their religion and suddenly become more popular - a more aggressive approach like that of a religion founded by a warrior would not be taken very well by the world community (see Sinai peninsula), and copying parts of Christian religion would be seen as subjecting to that. It's also unlikely that the Jews could suddenly convert millions of people to some form of Judaism - just look at what happened when millions of young people in the west showed sympathies with Baghwan.

As it is unrealistic for the world's religions to suddenly become tolerant towards other religions, or even become unimportant for people, like astrology, there's only eternal struggle. May the better one win.

Are you completely out of your mind? The land was taken from Palestinians and given to the Jews. There are large swathes of generally uninhabited land all around the world that could've been given to them. Taking land from Germany would've been even more insane, because, you see, you've already raped the German nation by removing all of Prussia, Silesia, Pommerania and other areas. And, you want to give them a swathe of the Rhine? Bavaria? Hanover?
 
Are you completely out of your mind? The land was taken from Palestinians and given to the Jews. There are large swathes of generally uninhabited land all around the world that could've been given to them. Taking land from Germany would've been even more insane, because, you see, you've already raped the German nation by removing all of Prussia, Silesia, Pommerania and other areas. And, you want to give them a swathe of the Rhine? Bavaria? Hanover?

I think it's you who is completely out of your mind, and you should tone down a little bit!

If you look at the history, you will see that, usually, when for instance a new Jewish settlement was erected, the land was bought first, though sometimes without revealing it would be used by Jews. The land was not more "taken" from the Palestinians when land is taken by a Turk in Germany when he buys a house there, or land is taken by a German from the Spanish when he buys a place there for his holidays.

I'm not talking about the wall around the West Bank, or similar measures - which mostly only started after the Intifadah. Some of those measures are, btw., not worse than what the Jordanians did when they were in charge of the area. And I do not endorse either.

Also, I think raping a rapist is not really a crime. Germany started a war trying to gain "Lebensraum". When it lost this useless war of aggression, it also lost some land - only fair. Also, I said that it would not be a very good idea to carve some land for Jews or other persecuted minorities out of what remained of Germany. Try to read before you write!

You look like one of those ultra nationalists who actually believe any injustice was done to Germany. One could argue as well that especially the western powers were extremely forgiving, considering the carnage, the unprecedented level of breaching any conventions of humaneness. And you dare say that Germany was "raped"? You should be ashamed of yourself!
 
A couple things to keep in mind:

Firstly, Jewish immigration to Palestine had been in effect since the 1880's.

Secondly, alternative plans for Jewish Homelands all pre-dated WWII and were all unsuccessful prior to WWII, and all were very patronizing and colonialist in their entire outlook and function.
- the British Uganda Plan (the location actually was in modern-day Kenya) was suggested and rejected in 1903-05.
- The Jewish Autonomous Oblast was created in the late 1920's and was a failed attempt at creating a more Soviet-friendly Marxist Jewish socialism, as opposed to Zionism.

- The Fugu plan of the Japanese, and the Nazi Madagascar plan (though the Madagascar plan did have prior roots in other British and French strategies)

- Sitka, Alaska plan - Rejected in 1939.

By the time WWII rolls around, there is no way you could get anyone to buy into an autonomous Jewish region in Europe - remember, that thousands of survivors who returned to their homes were massacred post-war (see: Poland, Ukraine, Romania, others). Furthermore, Israel(Palestine/Zion/Canaan/Whatever makes you feel good) was the destination for the Jews, and there was really not much way to stop it. (Also, to reiterarate, most, if not all, jewish land pre-1948 was bought from the Ottomans, the local Arab landowners. Also, there was no such thing as a Palestinian before 1948 at the least - it is very much a modern political construct.)

Any PoD would have to come well before WWII, unless you had Germany controlling the Middle East?

To sum up, I don't really see any non-ASB way for territory in actual Germany being set up as any sort of Jewish Homeland.
 
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