Deleted member 97083
Well, when Stalin moved Soviet industries behind the Urals, a migration of about 10 million workers occurred to the new industrial centers. So the Soviets could handle a movement/evacuation of millions of people.
Could Britain have helped Europe's Jewish population 1941 on?
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
I have always felt,just MO,that the amount of resources needed to carry out the Final Solution were not used against the Allies. Plus bombing a train line or camp and not having ground troops to help the escaped could actually made things worse.
Aphrodite
Banned
If the British or any foreign power advocated for the Jews, it is more likely to fuel Stalin's paranoia and lead to the extermination of all the Jews in the Soviet Union Once the war starts, the only way to save the Jews is a rapid and complete defeat of the Nazi regime
The best way to be sure to hit a moving locomotive is to fire along the same direction as the railway line.
Along the same direction as the railway line there is the remainder of the train.
That said, in the few last months of the war the Germans were still killing harmless, defenseless civilians by the thousands on a regular basis - simply by marching them to exhaustion and death. They can simply begin that practice earlier.
Deleted member 94680
To remove them from European Russia, because he didn't trust them. To pack them off to the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, because he wanted to counter the 'influence' of Israel. There was nothing humanitarian about it. Also, I think your numbers are a little high, but could be wrong.
No worries.
Which is why this is ASB and out of the scope of this particular discussion.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
Sign an armistice with Germany and accept to take all European Jews?
GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
https://www.raf.mod.uk/history/TheMosquito.cfm
Yes, you want to cause a variety of problems for the enemy. And if electricity is sometimes up and running and sometimes isn't, that certainly counts as a problem.
I think late in the war, Britain hit upon the trick of dropping bombs which exploded in mid-air and released a lot of metal strips, which would give a bunch of false positives to Nazi radar.
*merely released the strips of aluminum foil
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Deleted member 1487
Window/Chaff. No bombs dropped, just strips of aluminum foil. Used en masse from 1943 on.
I think an arguement can be made faulting the British for not accepting more Jewish refugees to Britain and the Dominions, but not to Palestine.
Mandate Palestine was just that, a mandate that the British theoretically goverened in trust on behalf of the inhabitants. (In practice of course it was treated more like a colony by another name. ) I dont think morally a case can be made that the British SHOULD have flooded the country with refugees when a great majority of the native inhabitants definitely did not want them.
The native palestinians were violently opposed to mass jewish immigration for a variety of reasons, and had within recent memory launched uprisings to protest against it. Unfortuneately, given what happened later it would seem they were mostly right in thier fears.
In my view view limiting jewish immigration to palestine was one of the few ways in which the British actually upheld their responsibility to the Mandate.
You gonna need either moderate military coup toppling Nazis, or negotiated peace (success last flight of Hess?).
Initially, Nazis were ambivalent about how they're gonna get rid of Jews, entertaining ideas such as expulsion (such as Palestine, occupied Poland, Madagascar). Only after it became obvious that no, Britain isn't gonna sue for peace, blockade isn't going to end, that Nazis made up they mind to exterminate. OP's statistic strongly imply that decision to exterminate rather than resettle was made somewhere around 1941.
Initially, Nazis were ambivalent about how they're gonna get rid of Jews, entertaining ideas such as expulsion (such as Palestine, occupied Poland, Madagascar). Only after it became obvious that no, Britain isn't gonna sue for peace, blockade isn't going to end, that Nazis made up they mind to exterminate. OP's statistic strongly imply that decision to exterminate rather than resettle was made somewhere around 1941.
The Arabs in Palestine were opposed to Jewish immigration there, yes, because they didn't want a Jewish national home in it. That's fine. But Britain was responsible under the international agreements to bring about a Jewish national home providing that "nothing shall be done to prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". The British didn't govern Mandate Palestine in trust, like you said, on behalf of the inhabitants like they were in Iraq or what the French were doing in Syria. Instead they were administering it under the provisions of the League of Nations' covenant which said that a Jewish national home (which everyone took to mean a Jewish state) was to be established there. By reneging on this and limiting Jewish immigration, they were violating international agreements.
In fact, the British were supposed to be brought before the Permanent Mandates Commission over the 1939 White Paper in September 1939.
But getting back to the topic at hand because I don't want to derail this thread and this isn't the Chat forum (PM me if you wish to continue talking about this). If Churchill can be convinced by Ben-Gurion and Weizmann (the latter he's more likely to listen to since they were pretty close friends) to allow Jewish immigration and suspend the White Paper, I think he would have. Plus we'd have a good chance of butterflying away the assassination of Lord Moyne, who was Churchill's dear friend. Churchill had intervened before in 1941 to protect Jewish refugees in Palestine from being deported by the Royal Navy despite the objections of his officers, and had even instructed the Royal Navy not to target or stop any ship carrying Jewish refugees to Palestine.
The issue would be the pro-Arab and antisemitic stances of the Foreign Office.
Deleted member 1487
If that were possible, then arguably by not encouraging the German military resistance to overthrow Hitler and stop the genocide in return for a negotiated surrender that there was a missing chance to save Holocaust victims. That said there were reasons why it was decided that unconditional surrender was the only option
CaliGuy
Banned
For what it's worth, Nazi Germany banned Jewish emigration in October 1941. In turn, this suggests that the decision to exterminate was made around then.
Okay. That is ENOUGH.
This is your third kick for various wild conspiracy theories with no relation to reality in the last month.
It is also almost certainly your last kick for anything. You have burned through about five years of chances in under 30 days.
Kicked for a week.
You guys are looking at this the wrong way.
If Britain had managed to evacuate 3 million Jews that would have otherwise died in the holocaust then the Nazis would have simply killed someone else. After all, its not as if the Jews were the only people who suffered and died in those death camps.
In reality the only way to actually save people from those death camps (and thus decrease the number of deaths during the holocaust) is to end the war sooner.
If Britain had managed to evacuate 3 million Jews that would have otherwise died in the holocaust then the Nazis would have simply killed someone else. After all, its not as if the Jews were the only people who suffered and died in those death camps.
In reality the only way to actually save people from those death camps (and thus decrease the number of deaths during the holocaust) is to end the war sooner.
Why didnt the neutral countries like the Vatican City, Sweden, USA (obviously before 7th Dec), Switzerland and all of South America do something. Britain was struggling to surive, though more could have been done pre-war.
Usually it was a mix of things. Mostly it was antisemitism and stringent anti-immigration laws. The US had very strict anti-immigration laws and national origins quotas that kept people from entering the country (the Immigration Act of 1924 was particularly brutal in limiting Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe). The Évian Conference in 1938 did next to nothing because no one wanted to take in Jewish refugees (except the Dominican Republic and Costa Rica who increased their immigration quotas, but not by much).
Seriously. Your best bet to have Britain help Europe's Jewish population is to either have them rescind/suspend the 1939 White Paper or them never to pass it in the first place.
The Vatican City is a state having a surface area of about 1 square kilometer, and in 1939 it had maybe a population of 500.
Yes, they could issue passports, but not host a lot of people. These would need to be foreign residents elsewhere - and just as most countries were restricting immigration, they were also restricting permits for foreign residents.
Stated in this way, you make it sound as if the act specifically and selectively limited "Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe". It actually limited immigration of Eastern Europeans of any religion.
I meant to put the Vatican City seperately to the rest of the neutral countries as a Passport and Visa issuing state. The curse of posting via mobile phones when your fat finger hits send before you manage to make any sense