I'm looking for timelines that involve China westernizing before 1900. Whether Chinese westernization is the primary focus or a side story, doesn't matter. Preferably I want this westernization to happen sometime in the mid 19th century.
China Westernizes Timelines
- Thread starter IchBinDieKaiser
- Start date
I guess Industrialized might be a better word. Basically I'm looking for a China that does what Japan did IOTL after being opened up. To embrace western ideas instead of resisting them.
evb
Banned
China was more "western" than the europeans together after the romans went. The exact year they became closed was 1424, when they faced total collapse or domination of the world (British style), or they would shut their doors. And after centuries, what made them open the doors was an attack from Japan, that they could'nt handle with. And as sarapen noted- they're still not westernized. The only chance of China to be "mainstream" is if they define it (which they are doing right now in 2011).
You may also want to look at Superpower Empire: China 1912 by Hendryk, which is both an excellent TL and very much like what you're looking for.
Are you going for a Japan-like China?
Or a largely colonized China adapting - to some degree - to its master(s)?
Or a largely colonized China adapting - to some degree - to its master(s)?
RookieHistorian
Banned
That is actually a very intriquing prospect. I think I might even start a thread for it...
if someone doesn't beat me to it anyways.
if someone doesn't beat me to it anyways.
Good luck.
A central value to China since time immemorial was the supremacy of Chinese ideas. It was the center of its own world, and its neighbors revolved around it. That's one of the major factors that prevented it from getting along with the Europeans. When the Qing Dynasty wanted to reform, they were at a loss. How do you reform perfection? Imitating Meiji Japan is NEVER an option. It's the same as having any given European country evolve into another Rome. You need to give China a much more tolerant attitude, which is difficult to do simply because it doesn't have any country to worry about until the 1800s. China is the Rome that didn't fall (it literally is the equivalent of all of Europe under one banner), getting it to adopt Western ideas is the same as trying to get Rome to adopt Chinese ones.
A central value to China since time immemorial was the supremacy of Chinese ideas. It was the center of its own world, and its neighbors revolved around it. That's one of the major factors that prevented it from getting along with the Europeans. When the Qing Dynasty wanted to reform, they were at a loss. How do you reform perfection? Imitating Meiji Japan is NEVER an option. It's the same as having any given European country evolve into another Rome. You need to give China a much more tolerant attitude, which is difficult to do simply because it doesn't have any country to worry about until the 1800s. China is the Rome that didn't fall (it literally is the equivalent of all of Europe under one banner), getting it to adopt Western ideas is the same as trying to get Rome to adopt Chinese ones.
China did try to 'pull a meiji'. It just didn't have the advantages Japan did, was a more significant place for foreigners and ran into quite a bit of bad luck and crappy internal politics.
The things you would have to do to get to that situation would dwarf it into irrelevance.
The things you would have to do to get to that situation would dwarf it into irrelevance.
Faeelin
Banned
This is why the Chinese exterminated all Buddhist missionaries who showed up, shot any Jesuits offering knowledge of astronomy or artillery, and never, ever adopted a form of government and economy conjured by a German living in Britain.
Point taken.
However, I was only talking about the Qing Dynasty. Buddhism and the Jesuits preceded that. Communism was after 1900. If you can get China to adopt a Western style government, Communist or not, before then, let me know. I just don't really see it being likely, especially considering how out of touch (Cixi) the Chinese government was with, well, reality. Sure, they borrowed here and there, but when it came to complete adoption of foreign ideas and eradication of Chinese ideas, it didn't happen. Buddhism was syncretic. Christianity was not. China wasn't backwards, refusing to adopt ANYTHING, but they were confident enough in their own systems as to refuse to meet with the Europeans on a government-to-government basis even when the situation with the opium trade had become so awful it was beginning to bankrupt China and they were about to go to war with Great Britain over the whole mess.
Well, the best POD should be Genghis Khan never born and Southern Song enables to prevent the Mongols from invading then after defeating the Mongols, China could pull an industrial revolution and colonizes Australian or some parts of North or South America in order to gain more resources for the IR.
What do you mean by a Western-style government, if it's before 1900? A constitutional monarchy? A republic?
The idea that Qing dynasty were unable to reform is quite wrong, as there were plenty of calls for reform and attempts to do so throughout the 19th century, but they failed. It doesn't mean they were destined to fail. The Qing was eminently recoverable. Cixi shares much of the blame for that.
Modernization TLs
If there's any TL's, could someone reply? An "Asia" modernizes TL would be great.
But anyways, for this, they could have a POD at:
- An earlier death of Confucius.
- Ming colonize during Zheng He (he changed the ruler of Sri Lanka or something)
- They lose to Portugal in a war because of outdated weaponry, and industrialize with Spanish or Dutch aid.
- During the Imjin War, they try to win quicker, and buy Spanish weaponry.
- The Ming (or Sung) survive attacks from the northerners, and continue their trade with the outside world.
If there's any TL's, could someone reply? An "Asia" modernizes TL would be great.
But anyways, for this, they could have a POD at:
- An earlier death of Confucius.
- Ming colonize during Zheng He (he changed the ruler of Sri Lanka or something)
- They lose to Portugal in a war because of outdated weaponry, and industrialize with Spanish or Dutch aid.
- During the Imjin War, they try to win quicker, and buy Spanish weaponry.
- The Ming (or Sung) survive attacks from the northerners, and continue their trade with the outside world.
I've heard it put that one of the biggest problems for the Qing was finding a way to reform while also trying to keep the Manchu ruling caste in a position to continue to dominate Chineese politics and military matters. Maybe at some point a native Chineese dynasty could take power that feels more sure of itself and doesn't need to also absorb itself enforcing minority rule over its population.
How about a surviving Shun Dynasty?
(Alert: There's a possibility that this thread could be closed by the Mod anytime)
(Alert: There's a possibility that this thread could be closed by the Mod anytime)