Bundeswehr in neutral Germany after 1953

[abc123]

The 100.000 men Reichwehr did also have to deal with numerous restrictions.
The problem was the unwillingness to enforce these restrictions, not the size of the German army.

Well, you have similar situation here too. On one hand- they don't believe Germany and want small German Army, if any... On other hand- they want Germany that can do it's part in stopping the Soviets as far east as possible, that means stronger German Army. So, some sort of compromise is necesarry...

I did put an SPD member as Defence Minister, to insure both the domestic and foreign public that the new German Army will not be a threat and return to militarism. And strong anti-rearmament part of SPD too...

Perhaps some Bundeswehr generals will not be part of BW ITTL, because they were very prominent during WW2. Also, maybe some other names, like Armee instead of Heer, Luftmacht/Luftstreitkrafte instead of Luftwaffe etc.

 

[Brundlefly]

Well, I have to admitt that I pulled the names of ( especially SPD ) ministers without studyng them too much. So, if you have some alternate names, please do tell them?

There were some CDU members that resigned because Adenauer didn't try to start negotiations with Stalin...

I think that the most of the refugees didn't STAY in E. Germany for long- communism and Soviet rule... That's the reason why I gave them allmost no votes there...

I'd say Ollenhauer and Heinemann make sense. They were always in favour of unification. Brandt also was, but I don't think he'd be okay with the revisionist forces that would come to the forefront in such a scenario. Maybe some better choices would be SPD politicians who were very critical of Brandt's later "Ostpolitik", like Wenzel Jaksch, Reinhold Rehs or Herbert Hupka.

There was a geographically-influenced movement: many Sudeten Germans and those from Eastern Europe mostly fled to Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, East Prussians ended up in the Northern parts, Silesians in the latter GDR, etc. East Germany had about one-third of all refugees. Here are some numbers: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimatvertriebene (under "Verteilung in Deutschland")

Although they become more "insivible" in the GDR, I'd say in 1953 there's still much of the old identity/revisionism left to make many of them vote for the BHE. I guess they wouldn't get one-third of the BHE vote, but maybe up to 5 more seats there. I think the Sudeten Germans in South Germany were the ones most vocal about getting back former parts.

 

[abc123]

I'd say Ollenhauer and Heinemann make sense. They were always in favour of unification. Brandt also was, but I don't think he'd be okay with the revisionist forces that would come to the forefront in such a scenario. Maybe some better choices would be SPD politicians who were very critical of Brandt's later "Ostpolitik", like Wenzel Jaksch, Reinhold Rehs or Herbert Hupka.

There was a geographically-influenced movement: many Sudeten Germans and those from Eastern Europe mostly fled to Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, East Prussians ended up in the Northern parts, Silesians in the latter GDR, etc. East Germany had about one-third of all refugees. Here are some numbers: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heimatvertriebene (under "Verteilung in Deutschland")

Although they become more "insivible" in the GDR, I'd say in 1953 there's still much of the old identity/revisionism left to make many of them vote for the BHE. I guess they wouldn't get one-third of the BHE vote, but maybe up to 5 more seats there. I think the Sudeten Germans in South Germany were the ones most vocal about getting back former parts.

I read somewhere that Schleswig-Holstein was the Land with highest percent of refugees..

 

[Brundlefly]

I read somewhere that Schleswig-Holstein was the Land with highest percent of refugees..

I think it was Bavaria, but Schleswig-Holstein also had its fair share. Of course, before 1961 many East Germans - including former refugees - also left the GDR, but with Stalin's solution fulfilled this movement would stop after unification.

 

[abc123]

I think it was Bavaria, but Schleswig-Holstein also had its fair share. Of course, before 1961 many East Germans - including former refugees - also left the GDR, but with Stalin's solution fulfilled this movement would stop after unification.

Agreed......

 

[abc123]

I'd say Ollenhauer and Heinemann make sense. They were always in favour of unification. Brandt also was, but I don't think he'd be okay with the revisionist forces that would come to the forefront in such a scenario. Maybe some better choices would be SPD politicians who were very critical of Brandt's later "Ostpolitik", like Wenzel Jaksch, Reinhold Rehs or Herbert Hupka.

.

About these politicians, I'm not so sure that they would accept the solution that gives them unified Germany, but at the cost of eastern territories. Some of them even wanted the Sudetenland- as unplausible as that is.

So, I don't think they could be the part of any Government that accepts loss of eastern territories, and in article ( from Wikipedia admittedly ) I took as main informaion source Stalin proposed Potsdam borders, not 1937 borders...

 

[abc123]

Let's continue with this thread.

So, these are the conditions ( military provisions ) put upon Germany in so-called "Berlin Agreement" or 1952:

- Germany will be neutral country forever
- Germany will not join any existing or future military alliance/organisation nor conclude military alliance with any other country
- there will be no foreign military forces on German soil
- all existing foreign military forces will withdraw from Germany within one year
- German forces could not be stationed outside Germany
- Germany renounces war and use/threat of force as act of politics and will use force just in self-defence
- Germany will have military forces, but governments of Allied countries will give final agreement two or three years after reunification of Germany
- meanwhile, all four countries ( USA, UK, France and Soviet Union ) will guarantee the borders and independence of Germany
- Germany will have or develop no nuclear, biological or chemical weapons
- Total number of soldiers in Armed Forces of Germany will not be larger than 0,35% of population ( 250 000 soldiers ) in active service, with double that number ( 500 000 soldiers ) in reserve
- Germany will have no more than missiles or artillery weapons with range of more than 20 miles
- German Navy will have not more than 75 000 t of ships
- Germany will not have, develop or produce submarines
- Germany will not have bomber aircrafts
- Germany can produce or buy all kinds of military equipment, except those items forbidden by this agreement
- Soviet Union will have the right to mine all uranium from currently known deposits in Germany, trough company Wismut AG. Wismut AG will be in ownership of Soviet Government but German Government has the right of supervision of it's work. Wismut AG will be company under German jurisdiction and will have to follow German laws. Germany will have the right to buy surpluss uranium from Soviet Union.
- Allied governments have the right to block any appointment of commander in Bundeswehr in the rank of colonel and higher ( for 10 years ) if they were previously high ranking officers ( major or higher ) in Wehrmacht.
- former Waffen SS members can't serve in German Armed Forces
- persons convicted for war crimes can't become members of German Armed Forces

 

[anotherlurker]

*snip*

So basically during the post war boom years you want to leave Germany to its own devices free from being "guided" by either side with an underfunded military, putting all that money which would have gone towards expensive jets, ships, submarines and the army into its economy to grow using the western favored free trade _and_ rather open business relations to the eastern block. This is rather problematic because with economic power comes international influence.

Somehow i dont think the smart people making policy would allow that. If anything the best way to keep Germany week would be to force them to have a huge wasteful and expensive military with long conscription to keep all those young people from working productively.

 

[abc123]

So basically during the post war boom years you want to leave Germany to its own devices free from being "guided" by either side with an underfunded military, putting all that money which would have gone towards expensive jets, ships, submarines and the army into its economy to grow using the western favored free trade _and_ rather open business relations to the eastern block. This is rather problematic because with economic power comes international influence.

Somehow i dont think the smart people making policy would allow that. If anything the best way to keep Germany week would be to force them to have a huge wasteful and expensive military with long conscription to keep all those young people from working productively.

Well Germany had such an army in the OTL...

 

[Workable Goblin]

So basically during the post war boom years you want to leave Germany to its own devices free from being "guided" by either side with an underfunded military, putting all that money which would have gone towards expensive jets, ships, submarines and the army into its economy to grow using the western favored free trade _and_ rather open business relations to the eastern block. This is rather problematic because with economic power comes international influence.

Somehow i dont think the smart people making policy would allow that. If anything the best way to keep Germany week would be to force them to have a huge wasteful and expensive military with long conscription to keep all those young people from working productively.

Er...but this is 1953. They don't know that there is going to be a post war boom yet (at least not of the scale and magnitude of what happened), and far more importantly it's been just eight years since they bloodily overcame a "huge wasteful and expensive" German military that managed to conquer half the continent. Of course they're not going to care about Germany's "economic" influence, compared to its military power. Any reunified Germany at that time is going to be on an extremely short military leash intended to keep it from being a military threat again, and no one is going to think twice about it.

 

[anotherlurker]

Well Germany had such an army in the OTL...

I mean North-Korea size - so huge it's causing famines.

Er...but this is 1953. They don't know that there is going to be a post war boom yet (at least not of the scale and magnitude of what happened), and far more importantly it's been just eight years since they bloodily overcame a "huge wasteful and expensive" German military that managed to conquer half the continent. Of course they're not going to care about Germany's "economic" influence, compared to its military power. Any reunified Germany at that time is going to be on an extremely short military leash intended to keep it from being a military threat again, and no one is going to think twice about it.

The boom had already started by then, all over non-communist Europe the countries were growing at full speed, the German "Wirtschaftswunder" started in 1948 with the currency reform.

 

[Workable Goblin]

The boom had already started by then, all over non-communist Europe the countries were growing at full speed, the German "Wirtschaftswunder" started in 1948 with the currency reform.

Yes, which is why I said "of the scale and magnitude of what happened". You can't know that there are going to be trente glorieuses until there have, in fact, been trente and they have, in fact, been glorieuses.

For all they knew, the boom was going to be like the one that followed World War I, and there was going to be another downturn in the 1960s. Of course, there wasn't, and they were trying to make sure there wouldn't be, but it was hardly obvious that the Germans were going to grow as much as they did, in 1953.

 

[abc123]

I mean North-Korea size - so huge it's causing famines.



.

No need for Germany to have such army, why would they? After all, if Soviet Union is retreating from Germany on his own free will, why waste money on too big military? If Soviets didn't want free and unified Germany, they probably wouldn't retreat from there, right?

 

[abc123]

So, let's say that by the March of 1953 we have united Bundesrepublik Deutschland, with new Bundestag/Bundesrat ( elected from whole Germany ). Allied occupation forces will withdraw by end of June 1954.

Capital of BRD will become Berlin, but not yet- within 3 years- for now it's Bonn.

Germany still has no armed forces because Allies have two years to give final approval for establishing German Armed Forces. Meanwhile, Germany founded Defence Ministry and started preparations to establish Armed Forces. Name of the new force will be Bundeswehr ( Federal Armed Forces ). Name of the army will be Bundesarmee ( Federal Army ), navy ( Bundesmarine ) and air force ( Luftstreitkrafte ).

Germany started to assemble people with military experience and organise them, so that first units could be formed once when the Allies give their permission...

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

A force of about 250k soldiers is IMO not sufficient for this time to defend Germany properly against an attack either blocks. This means about 500 k soldiers are needed. In the cold war the Bundeswehr had 500k soldiers and the NVA 155 k. Thus, especially as nukes were forbidden for Germany, a strong conventional military would be needed.

 

[abc123]

A force of about 250k soldiers is IMO not sufficient for this time to defend Germany properly against an attack either blocks. This means about 500 k soldiers are needed. In the cold war the Bundeswehr had 500k soldiers and the NVA 155 k. Thus, especially as nukes were forbidden for Germany, a strong conventional military would be needed.

Well, sincerely, if the Red Arny is goeing to attack you, it's a pretty big damn question is the whole NATO enough to stop them... BUT, here we have the situation where Soviet Army pulls back from Germany under it's own free will, leaving their E. German puppets asunder, so Germans can probably think: Why ask for larger military ( especially in situation where France thinks that even 250 000 is too much ) when the Russians are goeing anyway?

But for Bundeswehr, IIRC in 1989 BW had about 370 000 soldiers...

 

[abc123]

Now, I wonder from where will Germany get weapons for their initial establishment of Bundeswehr?

 

[Albidoom]

But for Bundeswehr, IIRC in 1989 BW had about 370 000 soldiers...[/QUOTE]

Nope, that was around 94/95. In 1989 they were still at 495000. With the contingents from the other NATO forces there were likely near a Million soldiers on West German soil even during peacetime.

 

[abc123]

But for Bundeswehr, IIRC in 1989 BW had about 370 000 soldiers...

Nope, that was around 94/95. In 1989 they were still at 495000. With the contingents from the other NATO forces there were likely near a Million soldiers on West German soil even during peacetime.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. Brainfart on my part.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

The West German army in that time had three corps. Each of them would have inflated to a full army once mobilized.