Build a Warrior's France

The Great War has ended. The European powers owe millions of dollars to the United States of America and take out their economic frustration on Germany, forcing the defeated nation to give up even more of its industrial regions to French occupation. And just as things in the world seem to start to get a little better U.S. Banks tighten their hold on loans, forcing citizens to sell stock and cause a global depression.

All of that happened. Now here is the challenge.

Create a France that is not only democratic, but considered the Bastion of Freedom and Independence in Europe. Create a France that has a military that can go toe-to-toe with German panzers and grenadiers. Create a France that has such a strong economic foundation that the riches of Babylon would look dull in comparison.

In short, my friends, let us wank the French! ;)

But please, let us respect the art and hobby of Alternate Historical Research and Development and make this somewhat plausible!

Bon chance!
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The only way I can think of ATM is basically restoring at least one of the Rheinland departments and Britain and France deciding that Belgium is a pain in the ass :p
 

Susano

Banned
The only way I can think of ATM is basically restoring at least one of the Rheinland departments and Britain and France deciding that Belgium is a pain in the ass :p

I think this would make things only worse, not better. This thread is a strangely sensible wank-request, in that it requests stability and prosperity, not enlarged territorial size. Rhinish and Belgian territories would only cause trouble and expenses for France, though. What it takes are probably economy-historical PoDs, and there Im way out of my depths...
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I think this would make things only worse, not better. This thread is a strangely sensible wank-request, in that it requests stability and prosperity, not enlarged territorial size. Rhinish and Belgian territories would only cause trouble and expenses for France, though. What it takes are probably economy-historical PoDs, and there Im way out of my depths...

Admit it, you just go pale at the thought of restoring Mont-Tonnerre ;)
More seriously, I guess; the main problem is that the requisite economic PODs would have to go back pretty far IMO.
Oh and about Belgium I didn't mean France annexing it, but France deciding not to give up its strategic planning involving telling the belgians to go to hell.
 

Susano

Banned
Admit it, you just go pale at the thought of restoring Mont-Tonnerre ;)
More seriously, I guess; the main problem is that the requisite economic PODs would have to go back pretty far IMO.

*looks up the historical atlas* Ah, right the Palatinate - another thing bad with new French departments - French departments make absolutely no sense :p
 
Admit it, you just go pale at the thought of restoring Mont-Tonnerre ;)
More seriously, I guess; the main problem is that the requisite economic PODs would have to go back pretty far IMO.
Oh and about Belgium I didn't mean France annexing it, but France deciding not to give up its strategic planning involving telling the belgians to go to hell.

What do you have against Belgium?
 
The Great War has ended. The European powers owe millions of dollars to the United States of America and take out their economic frustration on Germany, forcing the defeated nation to give up even more of its industrial regions to French occupation. And just as things in the world seem to start to get a little better U.S. Banks tighten their hold on loans, forcing citizens to sell stock and cause a global depression.

All of that happened. Now here is the challenge.

Create a France that is not only democratic, but considered the Bastion of Freedom and Independence in Europe. Create a France that has a military that can go toe-to-toe with German panzers and grenadiers. Create a France that has such a strong economic foundation that the riches of Babylon would look dull in comparison.

In short, my friends, let us wank the French! ;)

But please, let us respect the art and hobby of Alternate Historical Research and Development and make this somewhat plausible!

Bon chance!

I think the way forward here is to have France actually lose a war - but not in France and not to Germany.

OK - POD 1918.

The Guns fall silent. And Joseph Stalin chokes to death on a fig in Russia.

After Lenin dies, Trotsky retains power. He becomes enraptured with the military ideas of Liddell-Hart. Trotsky finds the idea of massed armor for manuever (especially maneuver that replaces the politically unreliable cossack cavalry of the Soviet Union) to be awesome. He founds the Soviet Tank Corps and gets the Red Army to buy into it.

However, the 1920s are harsh in Soviet Russia, and popular discontent grows. Trostky decides the way forward is a short, victorious war to restore morale. His target: Poland.

Meanwhile, the French are worried. Trotsky is much more publically bellicose in ttl than Stalin in ours, and rants against the injustice of the 1920 war with Poland constantly. The French (and British) sign a defense treaty with Poland, and three French corps deploy to the Polish-Soviet frontier to deter the Russians.

It doesn't deter Trotsky. On May 1, 1932, with the world slipping into depression, the Red Army attacks. The Poles and French were ready...or thought they were. The Red Army 'blitzes' (a German war correspondent - Richard Sorge - coins the term that becomes popular through the world) the French. The French are sent reeling by slow (but powerful) massed Soviet armor and strikes by Soviet tactical air. The retreat becomes a rout, with Trotsky promising to liberate all of Europe in triumph.

It is not to be. Even though French Communists take to the streets in Paris, the government does not fall. The French Army puts down the communists in France fairly quickly. Meanwhile, in Poland, the Poles fall back on Warsaw. Even after the Red Army encircles the city, the French managed to extricate what is left of their forces in Poland to Danzig, where they fort up, support by the Anglo-French navies.

Soviet tactical doctrine, logistics, training, and equipment in Poland in 1932 is not nearly what Germany's in 1940 was. The French - although greatly reduced in number, are able to hold Danzig, at times with the direct gunfire support of the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale. It is still a staggering blow for the French, and public morale demands that Danzig hold, even after Warsaw surrenders in October of 1932.

Plucky Polish resistance and the canker sore of the French in Danzig means Trotsky must limit his aims (he'd originally intended to go after Germany in the Atumn of 1932). Both sides re-equip. For the French, it is a bitter pill. The tactics that won WWI were proved to be obsolete and useless against modern armored warfare. Soviet atrocities - well documented by neutral reporters like Sorge and American reporters like Floyd Gibbons - ensure that the war continues.

Young French military leaders - like Charles De Gaulle, who led an infantry division on an epic retreat from Lvov to Danzig - were brimming with ideas. And the French found themselves actually benefiting from the Depression. Vast amounts of American industrial capacity were avialable at rock-bottom prices. Soon US and French factories were turning out tanks and planes by the thousands.

The winter of 1932-33 shut down offensive activity around Danzig. With the spring thaw came the rematch. It would be too much to recreate every battle that was fought here. But for six months, the French and Soviets grappled with each other, both learning from the other, and both becoming all the more deadly for it. In the end, neither could force the other off. The French had quality - of troops, of training, and of equipment - while the Soviets had manpower and an utter indifference to casualties.

However, Hitler's rise to power in Germans, and Japanese activities in Manchuria gave both sides reason to pause. Recongnizing that they couldn't defeat Soviet Russia quickly, the French approached the Soviets through Sweden. Trotsky, his own position somewhat perilous due to the war - was receptive. In the end, the Treaty of Stockholm ended the war. In return for some territory around Lvov and in the Pripyet marches, the Soviet Union recognized the independence of Poland.

Despite the efforts of the government, the French people still considered this a defeat - Poland was their ally, and even if it was still independent, it had lost territory. The government fell, and replaced by the Actione Francaise, led by the energetic war hero De Gualle.

With his catch phrase 'No more retreats', the French begin to forecfully apply the painful lessons of the Poland war. The French Army is reorganized, with many old WWI generals replaced. The doctrines of WWI are also chucked out, in favor of more aggressive armored tactics. The French economy is humming as orders for new tanks and planes flow in.

The new military - and De Gualle's government - are put to the test in 1936 when Spain erupts into Civil War. Even though France is more right-wing than in OTL, and even though the Republicans are Soviet supported, De Gaulle sees Germany as much more of a threat. After the Republicans barely hold Madrid against Franco - and the Nazi advisors he has - the French intervene. Forecfully. Two French armored corps supported by four infantry corps cross the Pyranees. The blitz through the Nationalists like they aren't even there, overrunning their positions, and capturing a number of German 'volunteers' from the Condor Legion. By November of 1936, it's all over; the Republicans are firmly in control and Franco is in exile in Germany.

The French were willing to allow the Germans to re-occupy the Rhineland, and the 100,000-man Versailles army limit had been tossed out in 1932, in the event of a Soviet attack. Even the 1938 Anchluss with Austria was allowed in the name of making a German buffer against Russia. However, the Czech crisis was different. When Munich happened, and Chamberlain was talking about 'Peace in our Time', De Gaulle regarded the carpet-chewing Hitler with disgust, and remarked that if Hitler pressed on the Czechs, the French would view it badly. As in Badly with a capital 'B'.

The Germans tossed the dice anayway. The French stormed the frontier. A great armored battle was fought near Aachen, and while the German infantry push against Czech forts in the Sudentenland, German armor was taught a lesson in modern warfare. A lesson very few Germans lived to learn. Before the French could follow up on their victory, Hitler was deposed by the Wehrmacht. The war ended soon after.

How's that? It's 1938, and the French are kings of Europe. And without annexing a single square inch of territory, too.

Mike Turcotte
 
The fact that it freaked out and screamed "NAPOLEON" when France drew up strategic plans calling for France to go over Belgium in force if the Germans declared war again.
They did they even go as far as the Netherlands. It's not Belgium who make them lose in may 1940. When the war started we let the french pass.
 

Susano

Banned
So the revolution wasn't natural?:mad:

Okay, so Belgium built its identity on... not liking the Netherlands. Thats not exactly much to go on :p More to the point, from what I understand Belgium in the 19th century and before the 50s was sickingly francophone-cultural imperialist. If you need that to try to build up an identity, well, then it can be called "contrived", Id say IMO.
 
Tres awesome.

I think the way forward here is to have France actually lose a war - but not in France and not to Germany.

OK - POD 1918.

The Guns fall silent. And Joseph Stalin chokes to death on a fig in Russia.

After Lenin dies, Trotsky retains power. He becomes enraptured with the military ideas of Liddell-Hart. Trotsky finds the idea of massed armor for manuever (especially maneuver that replaces the politically unreliable cossack cavalry of the Soviet Union) to be awesome. He founds the Soviet Tank Corps and gets the Red Army to buy into it.

However, the 1920s are harsh in Soviet Russia, and popular discontent grows. Trostky decides the way forward is a short, victorious war to restore morale. His target: Poland.

Meanwhile, the French are worried. Trotsky is much more publically bellicose in ttl than Stalin in ours, and rants against the injustice of the 1920 war with Poland constantly. The French (and British) sign a defense treaty with Poland, and three French corps deploy to the Polish-Soviet frontier to deter the Russians.

It doesn't deter Trotsky. On May 1, 1932, with the world slipping into depression, the Red Army attacks. The Poles and French were ready...or thought they were. The Red Army 'blitzes' (a German war correspondent - Richard Sorge - coins the term that becomes popular through the world) the French. The French are sent reeling by slow (but powerful) massed Soviet armor and strikes by Soviet tactical air. The retreat becomes a rout, with Trotsky promising to liberate all of Europe in triumph.

It is not to be. Even though French Communists take to the streets in Paris, the government does not fall. The French Army puts down the communists in France fairly quickly. Meanwhile, in Poland, the Poles fall back on Warsaw. Even after the Red Army encircles the city, the French managed to extricate what is left of their forces in Poland to Danzig, where they fort up, support by the Anglo-French navies.

Soviet tactical doctrine, logistics, training, and equipment in Poland in 1932 is not nearly what Germany's in 1940 was. The French - although greatly reduced in number, are able to hold Danzig, at times with the direct gunfire support of the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale. It is still a staggering blow for the French, and public morale demands that Danzig hold, even after Warsaw surrenders in October of 1932.

Plucky Polish resistance and the canker sore of the French in Danzig means Trotsky must limit his aims (he'd originally intended to go after Germany in the Atumn of 1932). Both sides re-equip. For the French, it is a bitter pill. The tactics that won WWI were proved to be obsolete and useless against modern armored warfare. Soviet atrocities - well documented by neutral reporters like Sorge and American reporters like Floyd Gibbons - ensure that the war continues.

Young French military leaders - like Charles De Gaulle, who led an infantry division on an epic retreat from Lvov to Danzig - were brimming with ideas. And the French found themselves actually benefiting from the Depression. Vast amounts of American industrial capacity were avialable at rock-bottom prices. Soon US and French factories were turning out tanks and planes by the thousands.

The winter of 1932-33 shut down offensive activity around Danzig. With the spring thaw came the rematch. It would be too much to recreate every battle that was fought here. But for six months, the French and Soviets grappled with each other, both learning from the other, and both becoming all the more deadly for it. In the end, neither could force the other off. The French had quality - of troops, of training, and of equipment - while the Soviets had manpower and an utter indifference to casualties.

However, Hitler's rise to power in Germans, and Japanese activities in Manchuria gave both sides reason to pause. Recongnizing that they couldn't defeat Soviet Russia quickly, the French approached the Soviets through Sweden. Trotsky, his own position somewhat perilous due to the war - was receptive. In the end, the Treaty of Stockholm ended the war. In return for some territory around Lvov and in the Pripyet marches, the Soviet Union recognized the independence of Poland.

Despite the efforts of the government, the French people still considered this a defeat - Poland was their ally, and even if it was still independent, it had lost territory. The government fell, and replaced by the Actione Francaise, led by the energetic war hero De Gualle.

With his catch phrase 'No more retreats', the French begin to forecfully apply the painful lessons of the Poland war. The French Army is reorganized, with many old WWI generals replaced. The doctrines of WWI are also chucked out, in favor of more aggressive armored tactics. The French economy is humming as orders for new tanks and planes flow in.

The new military - and De Gualle's government - are put to the test in 1936 when Spain erupts into Civil War. Even though France is more right-wing than in OTL, and even though the Republicans are Soviet supported, De Gaulle sees Germany as much more of a threat. After the Republicans barely hold Madrid against Franco - and the Nazi advisors he has - the French intervene. Forecfully. Two French armored corps supported by four infantry corps cross the Pyranees. The blitz through the Nationalists like they aren't even there, overrunning their positions, and capturing a number of German 'volunteers' from the Condor Legion. By November of 1936, it's all over; the Republicans are firmly in control and Franco is in exile in Germany.

The French were willing to allow the Germans to re-occupy the Rhineland, and the 100,000-man Versailles army limit had been tossed out in 1932, in the event of a Soviet attack. Even the 1938 Anchluss with Austria was allowed in the name of making a German buffer against Russia. However, the Czech crisis was different. When Munich happened, and Chamberlain was talking about 'Peace in our Time', De Gaulle regarded the carpet-chewing Hitler with disgust, and remarked that if Hitler pressed on the Czechs, the French would view it badly. As in Badly with a capital 'B'.

The Germans tossed the dice anayway. The French stormed the frontier. A great armored battle was fought near Aachen, and while the German infantry push against Czech forts in the Sudentenland, German armor was taught a lesson in modern warfare. A lesson very few Germans lived to learn. Before the French could follow up on their victory, Hitler was deposed by the Wehrmacht. The war ended soon after.

How's that? It's 1938, and the French are kings of Europe. And without annexing a single square inch of territory, too.

Mike Turcotte
 
Okay, so Belgium built its identity on... not liking the Netherlands. Thats not exactly much to go on :p More to the point, Belgium before the 50s was sickingly francophone-cultural imperialist. If you need that to try to build up an identity, well, then it can be called "contrived", Id say IMO.
So the US are contrived to? Afterall they build there identity in not liking the british.
 

Susano

Banned
So the US are contrived to? Afterall they build there identity in not liking the british.

The 13 colonies were indeed thirteen colonies, but they pretty much had a common culture already before the revolution. The Southern Netherlands aka Belgium... not so much. Now, of course, had a Belgian national identity really been formed, then Id say nothing - its after all not my business to tell people how they should identify themselves. But it seems at least most Flemings these days disagree with the notion of a Belgian national identity...
 

archaeogeek

Banned
They did they even go as far as the Netherlands. It's not Belgium who make them lose in may 1940. When the war started we let the french pass.

More like "we asked for France, too late, to come in anyway because again Germany cared fuck all for our neutral stance"
 
This is a funny request because in a way, France was already the bastion of freedom. And the French army was the most respected in the world.

Sure, its political stability and effectiveness was a bit off but not much more than most other countries. And it was still a very respectable great power. Not as great as the bigger and richer Germany but then, neither was England and I don't hear anybody claiming England was useless.

The fact was that no single European power could hope to defeat Germany.

Nonetheless, France had more tanks than Germany and its army and air force was pretty much equal. Superior strategy defeated France. The vaunted blitzkrieg hit second-class reserve divisions and then shattered a French army outside its comfort zone. On those occasions the French army managed to fight according to its doctrine, it gave the Germans a bloody nose.

A case in point; both sides had roughly equal numbers of fighter planes. The French expected a long out campaign and limited their use so they would last the entire campaign. The Germans flew multiple sorties each day, multiplying their effectiveness.

So you really don't need to wank the French. Just allow them to fight as planned or put some first line divisions at Sedan.....
 
More like "we asked for France, too late, to come in anyway because again Germany cared fuck all for our neutral stance"
Even so that wouldn't have changed the result if they were allowed to pass a couple of days early. The german plan was to draw the french army as far as possible so they could sneak their panzers division by the Ardennes.
 

Typo

Banned
Even so that wouldn't have changed the result if they were allowed to pass a couple of days early. The german plan was to draw the french army as far as possible so they could sneak their panzers division by the Ardennes.
Ironically the entire Belgium thing wouldn't be an issue if France was stronger, Belgium only pulled out of the Locarno defense treaties in the late 30s because they (correctly) assessed that the French couldn't defend them from Germany.
 
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