Best Non-England Location for Industrialization?

That's not a widely held view among modern economic historians, yes Bengal was very exporting a lot and relatively rich but there doesn't seem to have been a productivity revolution, the textile and shipbuilding industries were extremely large, efficient and profitable but because labour was so cheap you weren't seeing the sort of mechanisation that European industries were undergoing.
Hmm, that reminds me some arguments on why Qing China did not industrialize: thanks to low wages and high interest rates it made more sense to use sophisticated machinery powered by human muscles instead of sophisticated machinery powered by wind or water power.
However, it did not explain why China had such low wages and high interest rates; nor how they are sure the causation flows from low wages to low productivity instead of the other way around (say because low literacy and numeracy rates make mechanisation harder, lowering wages).

Also, I had once read the claim that pre-Colonial India was even slower in adopting the printing press than the Ottoman Empire. If true, that might also serve as a handicap.
 
Also, I had once read the claim that pre-Colonial India was even slower in adopting the printing press than the Ottoman Empire. If true, that might also serve as a handicap.

There's a very good reason for that, Arabic is a more difficult language to print using movable type as a cursive language with more characters than the Latin alphabet and Devanagari (Hindi) is harder still. The Latin alphabet is very print friendly.
 
There's a very good reason for that, Arabic is a more difficult language to print using movable type as a cursive language with more characters than the Latin alphabet and Devanagari (Hindi) is harder still. The Latin alphabet is very print friendly.
Hundreds of conjuct (characters of consonant clusters) plus vowels being diacritics on the consonant
 
It and the Song also have the problem of too strong a government that was too involved in the economy, the British state was unusually laissez faire which was a help when it came to doing something that no one thought was possible.
Britain wasn't a laissez-faire state though during it's 1st industrial revolution (1700s - mid-1800s). For its time, it was very protectionist, imposed monopolies on trade (BEIC, for instance), was one of the first nations to form a central bank, had a very sophisticated public bond market for government financing and private investment, and had a massive military with which to secure trade and acquire new colonies/markets.

Here's the tariff rates of Britain versus France, for instance in the 19th century:
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Beginning the Industrial Revolution actually might not require local coal reserves. From "Coal and the Industrial Revolution, 1700-1869":
Tbh this article really doesn't make a very convincing argument. It uses hypotheticals that have nothing to do with real life to try and prove a very weak point... For example: that passage you quoted from the article's conclusion is referencing a "what if" scenario earlier in the article in which the authors speculated that IF England had had no coal reserves of its own, and IF the Netherlands or Ireland had had vast reserves instead, and IF extraction costs there were the same, and IF transports costs to England had been the same as they were historically within England*** THEN the lack of local reserves wouldn't necessarily have fundamentally changed the course of the industrial revolution in England... Or, in short: if you move the coal out of England but keep it just as accessible to the English then it won't change much... Wow, thanks captain obvious. It might be true, but it also doesn't really mean anything.

Furthermore this comes with the caveat (***) that they're specifically referring to the transport costs of coal from the mines around the Tyne (near Newcastle) to London, which constituted a 600+ kilometer long journey, assuming these can be applied universally. But this statistic doesn't actually mean all that much in regard to the early industrial revolution because the most coal-intensive heavy industries weren't in London, they were as close to the coal mines as possible up in the Black Country, Manchester, Newcastle, etc. And for good reason, the majority of the price of coal in London constituted transport costs, whereas these costs near the mines were negligible. So if England had had no coal of its own and the deposits had been in the Netherlands instead, would England's industrial centers have had easy and cheap access to that coal, really? The answer is simple: no.

After that it briefly brings up the question that actually matters, "what if England had had no coal reserves AND there had been no equivalents to make up for it" and they (correctly) say that coal could have been substituted with firewood, it then seems to go well as they admit England didn't have wood in great enough quantities to sustainably produce the equivalent amount of energy as was consumed historically from coal... They even straight up admit that because of this heavy industry would most likely not have developed in England but somewhere like the Baltic (which had far more woods)... Only to immediately dismiss this in the very next sentence because this scenario is "too far removed from reality", as if their own counterfactual wasn't just as far removed from it.
They also try to brush off the lower energy density of firewood by basically saying "I'm sure they would have found a way to capture the energy more efficiently". As if that changes the fact that the energy content of firewood is simply lower. Not to mention, imagine how much larger an oven would have to be in order to be able to handle the larger volume of firewood being burned instead of coal. It would be considerably harder to produce an equal amount of energy from firewood instead of coal. This hypothetical doesn't end with a simple maths equation you do on the back of a napkin, it has practical implications beyond the theoretical volume of wood you have to burn.

As another example, with table 3 the authors claim that the introduction of steam power from coal only provided a “modest” advantage in the mining industry over the traditional use of horses for purposes like pumping mines because the price of steam power per hour (including the cost of the machinery itself) was “only” 25-30% of that of an equivalent output by horses... For starters I don’t know in what reality anybody would dismiss something being 4x cheaper as only a modest advantage. Furthermore this calculation is certainly an underestimation as they only account for the cost of feeding said horses, completely disregarding any other costs such as the wages of the laborers that have to look after them, the cost of new animals, the construction of stables, the purchase of land for the animals to live on, or the reserve of horses that had to operate in shifts throughout the day (generally you'd need 3x the number of horses used to operate the gin, so an 8-hourse gin would need 24 horses to cover a full day).
As mines deepened the additional costs would not be insignificant, and would grow to be prohibitive. The average 18th century mine owned roughly 50 to 60 horses to pump up water, take into consideration that most mines were still shallow at this point... In contrast one deeper mine in Warwickshire that was 300 feet deep is known to have possessed a total of five hundred horses to operate the pumps. If this doesn't illustrate the exponential growth in operating costs I don't know what would. By the early 19th century most mines would exceed this depth by a considerable margin. The mining industry could not have developed this way if it had needed to continue to rely on horse power, the sheer number of horses needed would have been unaffordable and unmanageable.​
 
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As another example, with table 3 the authors claim that the introduction of steam power from coal only provided a “modest” advantage in the mining industry over the traditional use of horses for purposes like pumping mines because the price of steam power per hour (including the cost of the machinery itself) was “only” 25-30% of that of an equivalent output by horses... For starters I don’t know in what reality anybody would dismiss something being 4x cheaper as only a modest advantage.​

There's also a very notable connection between the development of steam technology and the mining industry in England. The early Newcomen engines were only suitable for mineside operations due to their low fuel efficiency. Attempts to use Newcomens early in the 18th century to pump water in London and for similar purposes failed due to fuel cost. It was the extensive use of early steam in the mining industry that established the engineering base that led to better engines later in the century and wider uses for steam power.
 
Attempts to use Newcomens early in the 18th century to pump water in London and for similar purposes failed due to fuel cost. It was the extensive use of early steam in the mining industry that established the engineering base that led to better engines later in the century and wider uses for steam power.
Exactly, people vaguely understood the basic principles at play but they didn't actually understand the exact maths behind them. Because of this the Newcomen engine was designed quite poorly, and virtually all early adopters outside of the coal mines discarded them because the fuel costs (usually firewood) were too high. Even Sweden, which the other article called out for its abundance of wood as an alternative to coal, had this exact problem with a Newcomen at the famous Dannemore iron mine. The engine, along with the iron smelters, burned through wood at such a rapid pace that prices were driven up and people began to get scared that they would run out of easily accessible firewood.

But in the coal mines like those found in England or Wallonia (Liege and Namur both had Newcomen engines by the mid 1720s, hardly a decade after its invention) they used their own scraps as fuel, meaning that these steam engines used trash to allow more coal (and therefore energy) to be unearthed and more profits to be made. It was a virtuous cycle for the mine operators and created an environment where other engineers could improve on the design until it became efficient enough to be employed in other industries.​
 
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How about Greece, the Hellenistic states, and the Fertile Crescent states during the Islamic Golden Age as well as the Byzantine Empire? Given how the Greek inventor Hero who lived in Alexandria invented a aeolipile, which some people have argued could have developed into a true steam engine, it seems possible that if the aeolipile stuck around, maybe in a position of “interesting toy” more people could get curious about and if enough time goes by, it could be possible for a true Industrial Revolution to pop up in Greece or the Hellenistic states.
 
How about Greece, the Hellenistic states, and the Fertile Crescent states during the Islamic Golden Age as well as the Byzantine Empire? Given how the Greek inventor Hero who lived in Alexandria invented a aeolipile, which some people have argued could have developed into a true steam engine, it seems possible that if the aeolipile stuck around, maybe in a position of “interesting toy” more people could get curious about and if enough time goes by, it could be possible for a true Industrial Revolution to pop up in Greece or the Hellenistic states.

It's not just a question of having the idea of steam as a force and having the metallurgy to make a pressure vessel, if that was all that was required dozens of society could have seen an industrial lift off. You require a labour shortage so businessmen who want to expand production are forced to use, expensive, unreliable and inefficient machines rather than simply using traditional, manpower intensive techniques on a larger scale. That's what separated 18th century England (and Belgium) from many of the other societies mentioned in this thread.
 
India has ample coalfields, forests, and a lot of potential for water wheels. But the interesting thing I was reading about the other day suggests that a lot of technology in India did not arrive until the era of the Delhi Sultanate. Like the famous spinning wheels (think Gandhi and one of his movements) were not there until the 14th century.

I think it's possible for this technology to be introduced 50-100 years earlier via Genghis Khan invading India and leaving that as one of the major Mongol khanates. Ideally once the Yuan dynasty appears, this leads to a reactivation of the old Buddhist pilgrimage routes and contact with Tibetans which might introduce more Chinese innovations from early movable-type printing (very uncommon in India, but perhaps it might be different under Mongol rule and with more prominent Buddhist monks) to Chinese watermills and even crops like tea (which would be great for raising money).

Now I'm not saying India was inferior to China and needed to import their ideas--this would be more cross-pollination if anything between indigenous Indian, Chinese, and Middle Eastern civilisations which produces something uniquely Indian. And the end result would be a state which has ample groundwork for the beginnings of industrialisation. They have capital from selling tea to Europeans, they have the scientific environment to innovate, and they may very well have the productivity demands because of various conditions. Ergo, industrial revolution, or otherwise the ability to rapidly copy Europe's own innovations like Japan did.
That's not a widely held view among modern economic historians, yes Bengal was very exporting a lot and relatively rich but there doesn't seem to have been a productivity revolution, the textile and shipbuilding industries were extremely large, efficient and profitable but because labour was so cheap you weren't seeing the sort of mechanisation that European industries were undergoing.
Labour being cheap is relative of a lot of things. If there was a severe famine or epidemic, or perhaps a lot of male soldiers die abroad and they have to ship a bunch of slaves to buy off an enemy, then that changes the equation enough that someone could implement those sorts of machines.
As for the looting of Bengal paying for British industrialisation that is also not widely held, if anything looting Bengal probably slowed things down by reducing the persistent current account deficit that Britain (and Europe) had with Asia. That deficit and the continued outflow of precious metals east almost certainly was a key driving factor in OTL.
I mean destroying a major competitor so your own textile industries can take off is a pretty obvious factor. What is the counterargument to that?
 
In the book, “The Forgotten Revolution,” it describes Hellenic Greece as nearing a Scientific Revolution, but was soon stopped by a Roman takeover (for example: the Milesian School and its focus on rational thought and the acquisition of knowledge). Would an early Scientific Revolution spur industrialization, or would it still stagnate even with improved knowledge and inventions due to the societal conditions of Ancient Greece?
 
In the book, “The Forgotten Revolution,” it describes Hellenic Greece as nearing a Scientific Revolution, but was soon stopped by a Roman takeover (for example: the Milesian School and its focus on rational thought and the acquisition of knowledge). Would an early Scientific Revolution spur industrialization, or would it still stagnate even with improved knowledge and inventions due to the societal conditions of Ancient Greece?

Hellenistic era Greece was a long, long way technologically from an Industrial revolution, moveable type printing is an absolute prerequisite for one thing.

I mean destroying a major competitor so your own textile industries can take off is a pretty obvious factor. What is the counterargument to that?

You've got the cart before the horse, Britain looted Bengal dry because that is what conquerors do. British industrialisation was primarily driven by internal factors relating to rising living standards off the back of the agricultural revolution creating strong domestic demand and high wages that blocked businesses from growing extensively (i.e. simply hiring more workers) and forced them to intensify (i.e. bring in machines so each man could produce more). That was already happening before Plessey but the coincidental timing meant that Bengal couldn't re-establish itself post conquest because it was now in a free trade area with a more efficient producer.

Labour being cheap is relative of a lot of things. If there was a severe famine or epidemic, or perhaps a lot of male soldiers die abroad and they have to ship a bunch of slaves to buy off an enemy, then that changes the equation enough that someone could implement those sorts of machines.

It needs to be more persistent than a famine or a bloody war. Britain was in a stable late marriage relatively low fertility equilibrium by the 15th century and that coupled with persistent emigration to the Americas created long lasting labour shortages.

They have capital from selling tea to Europeans, they have the scientific environment to innovate, and they may very well have the productivity demands because of various conditions. Ergo, industrial revolution, or otherwise the ability to rapidly copy Europe's own innovations like Japan did.

A different Bengal could have adapted to an industrial revolution started elsewhere much better, but you need much bigger changes to make it the home of the industrial revolution.
 
Given how the Greek inventor Hero who lived in Alexandria invented a aeolipile, which some people have argued could have developed into a true steam engine,
How much do they know about metallurgy?

I had read that OTL early steam engines had a nasty tendency to explode, despite being build by nations who already had centuries of experience in trying to make cannons which do not explode.
I mean destroying a major competitor so your own textile industries can take off is a pretty obvious factor. What is the counterargument to that?
Do you know how much textiles India continued to export under the British East India Company?
 
The whole Bengal Industrial Revolution stopped by the British because they were mustache twirling villains have always sound more like nationalist propaganda than like a real thing. We could just as well claim that there were a Flemish Industrial Revolution on the way in the 15th century but it was stopped by the Spanish because they were mustache twirling villains. It was also a center of textile manufacturing.
 
I think a major problem is that people always tend to assume that Europe is somehow destined to become the center of the Industrial Revolution, even though they were a backwater for millenia. Song China could very well have industrialized, as could Bengal. If England managed to overcome its challenges and establish a system that resulted in the Industrial Revolution, what's stopping Song China and Bengal from doing the same?
 
I think a major problem is that people always tend to assume that Europe is somehow destined to become the center of the Industrial Revolution, even though they were a backwater for millenia. Song China could very well have industrialized, as could Bengal. If England managed to overcome its challenges and establish a system that resulted in the Industrial Revolution, what's stopping Song China and Bengal from doing the same?

I think you are confusing two separate questions which have very distinct answers;

Q1.) Which regions have the geographical features (coal, iron ore, fertile agricultural land, usable rivers, convenient sea ports) that under the right circumstances they could have supported an industrial revolution

A1.) A very long list of places on every continent apart from Antarctica including Shanxi, Pennsylvania and many others.

Q2.) Which other regions in OTL history was close to the industrial takeoff that occurred in England in the 18th century

A2.) Belgium was the closest and other regions would have required PoD's of increasing size and longer time lags as you go down the list. By the time you're talking about a Roman Industrial Revolution you need a succession of very big PoD's and then a very long time lag for them to take effect.
 
I mean destroying a major competitor so your own textile industries can take off is a pretty obvious factor. What is the counterargument to that?
The counterargument would be that there is no empirical evidence of Britain intentionally destroying the textile industry in Bengal, and that by the time Bengal's textile industry began to decline the British industry had been well-established for decades already so that the decline of the Bengali industry cannot explain the emergence of its British counterpart.

One narrative claims that the British tried to "strangle" Bengal production by imposing high custom duties on cotton fabrics, but this only applied to imports into Britain which represented only a fraction of the total exports of Bengal. The overwhelming majority of Bengali textiles were bought domestically or exported around the Indian Ocean, not sold to Britain or even the west as a whole. Furthermore even in the west Britain was only a small recipient of exports even before those tariffs were imposed, the biggest importers were the USA and Portugal. Furthermore examinations of the prices charged in Britain show that without duties imposed on them textiles from Bengal would have competed with British manufacturers, but would not have outcompeted them. Finally those tariffs in Britain were dropped in 1826, before the textile industry in Bengal collapsed.

Another narrative claims that Britain pushed out other European buyers during the 1790s or 1810s but this is a major case of tunnel vision. First of all, as mentioned above, the west only represented a part of the export market and could never have been enough to destroy the industry in Bengal. But more importantly no such thing actually happened, what happened during that period is that those other buyers got dragged into the Napoleonic Wars and lost their access to the Indian market, either because they were annexed by the French (e.g. the Netherlands) or were otherwise subject to Napoleon's continental system (e.g. Denmark). Exports to Portugal came to an end when the Peninsular War broke out, and exports to the USA with the War of 1812. After those wars ended exports resumed, resulting in a short-lived boom in Bengal's exports to the west. But by the late 1810s Britain's own industry had developed enough and soon thereafter it replaced Bengal as the west's primary source of cotton textiles.

It was only in the late 1820s that Bengali exports declined significantly, but at that point it still produced for the regional markets. And not until the late 1830s did British exports to Bengal start to ramp up, at which point the British manufacturers began to dominate bengal's domestic market.

Source: Identifying the woes of the cotton textile industry in Bengal (Indrajit Ray)​
 
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I think a major problem is that people always tend to assume that Europe is somehow destined to become the center of the Industrial Revolution, even though they were a backwater for millenia. Song China could very well have industrialized, as could Bengal. If England managed to overcome its challenges and establish a system that resulted in the Industrial Revolution, what's stopping Song China and Bengal from doing the same?

Europe was one of the economic motors of Eurasia, the fact that the Silk Road connected Europe to China, should tell you precisely how economic backwater Europe was or wasn’t.
 
Europe was one of the economic motors of Eurasia, the fact that the Silk Road connected Europe to China, should tell you precisely how economic backwater Europe was or wasn’t.
The fact that Europe imported major innovations from Asia and was obsessed with finding a route to India should also tell something
 
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