Alternate Kalashnikov

[Campbell1004]

The AK-47 was invented by Mikhail Kalashnikov of the Soviet Union in 1947. Sixty years later it remains in service throughout the world, and has seen action on nearly every third world battlefield. It is light, it is durable, it is cheap, and it will never jam. In such countries as Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan nearly every urban household features a Kalashnikov for personal protection.

The Kalashnikov was not the first of the Automatic Assault Rifles. Russia in fact boasted Fedorov Avtomat (First put into production in 1915), Nazi Germany had the famous Sturmgweher 44 (1944 - Parent of the M16), and Italy featured the inaccurate and unstable Cei-Rigotti (Earliest known to be invented in 1890, finally modified in 1900).

Russia's Kalashnikov became the symbol and weapon of every third world country because of its liability and price, along with the massive build up created by the Cold War. Due to Russia's industrial power the Kalashnikov became the countries No.1 export, followed by Tetris and Vodka.

Your Mission: Create a short example of alternate history that provides another form of assault rifle to be adopted by third world (or even first world countries). Your POD can be anywhere after 1850 (this gives flexibility) up to 2000 (Bonus points for something closer to our time, and for pictures).
The weapon does not need to be one that was already tested for production, and your country does not need to be the victorious nation in every world war, it simply needs the economics and industrial might to create such a vast horde of weaponry.

Example: In 1914 the German Empire captures Paris, forcing France out of the war. Due to the British blockade Germany relinquishes Belgium. Germany then destroys Russia in the summer and carves up western Russia.
When Communist Russia invades Poland in 1933 Germany goes to war again. After four months on the front line the M28 (Mauser Model 1928) is realized to be an inadequate infantry weapon. In response the Imperial Armory comes up with the Wiederholen des Gewehrs Model 1933 (WGM-33).
The WGM-33 will be the precursor to the WGM-48 which will become known as the world most versatile infantry rifle. Later improved into the WGM-77.

This isn't at all technically correct in any format, but its still fun. Sometimes AH can be fun, rather than 100% fact.

Good Luck, the world is yours.

 

[TemporalRenegade]

Interesting AH challenge. I guess I do not know enough about the technical aspects of firearm engineering to imagine how Kalashnikov could have possibly made a better assault rifle at the time.

I do know, however that while the AK-47 is not the first assault rifle, it is one of the earliest successful production model assault rifles, the first being the German STG-44. I think the AK is the second successful assault rifle to be put into mass production. The STG was a prototype for Kalashnikov's rifle, which was also influenced by the Simonov. Correct me if I am wrong, but the earlier models you mention, the turn-of-the-century Italian and Russian ones, were not assault rifles but more like light machineguns, man portable machine guns in the configuration of a rifle. Small nitpick I know, but the Cei-Rigotti and Federov Avtomat would have probably been clunky and unweildy, probably requiring a bipod for effective use. Assault rifles are compact, lightweight automatic weapons.

The technological prerequisites for an assault rifle are: (1) a reliable semiautomatic rifle, and (2) a reliable submachinegun design. (An SMG is not to be confused with a machinegun. The German term for sub-machinegun is machine pistola, machine pistol, essentially a small, handheld automatic weapon that fires handgun ammo.) The first successfully mass produced assault rifle was conceived as a scaled-up SMG, one large enough to fire rifle, rather than pistol, ammo. The earliest assault rifles were developed by crossing a carbine with a submachine gun, firing smaller rifle rounds.

Based on this, one can not get the sturdy, compact, relatively lightweight Avtomat Kalashnikov much earlier than the OTL date, at least not without an earlier POD. One would instead get a clunky, high-maintenance machinegun-rifle, or at best a BAR type gun. Early submachineguns may have been built either from "handguns-up," or from "machineguns-down," or perhaps by constructing an intermediate sized fully automatic weapon from scratch. (I am not exactly certain which approach was used, but probably all three methods were used to find the best SMG design.) Once someone is able to perfect the semiautomatic rifle and perfect the submachinegun, an assault rifle may soon follow. After all, semiautomatic rifles uncommon and sub-machine guns were unavailable until the interwar years.

 

[Aussie Guy]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the earlier models you mention, the turn-of-the-century Italian and Russian ones, were not assault rifles but more like light machineguns, man portable machine guns in the configuration of a rifle. Small nitpick I know, but the Cei-Rigotti and Federov Avtomat would have probably been clunky and unweildy, probably requiring a bipod for effective use. Assault rifles are compact, lightweight automatic weapons.

The Fedorov Avtomat and Cei-Rigotti used intermediate-strength cartridges, not full-power rounds like 8mm Mauser or anything. Combined with the select-fire capability of the weapons and their relatively light weight (the Cei Rigotti weighs the same as an AK-47), they could be employed as assault-rifles, despite not going by that name.

 

[Paul MacQ]

Well self loaders where around for a while like the Mandragon
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl26-e.htm

Was working on a Idea of a Time line where Paramilitary force is created, Basicaly Boarder troops that the Countries Army get Jealous of and, military demands they get a less powerful weapon than full size Battle Rifle

Hense the creation of a Medium Power Carbine , not like Most Carbines that used the Full power Cartridge of a Battle Rifle and kick like a mule

Army in time of war finds it is forced to use these Gendarme Carbines for want of a better term, as needing as many weapons as it can get. Eventually uses them on the Front line, Say a Auto Loader
My Original Idea was French Gendarmes somewhere in the Empire needing something better than Older weapons they often received
http://www.militaryrifles.com/France/78Kropat.htm

Wanting a Useful lighter weapon with firepower on Demand,
if you have someone like Manuel Mondragon with next to no resources create something like the Mexican army in 1908 as "Fusil Porfirio Diaz System a Mondragon" Maybe A Arms Company then not stretched making There countries main weapon for example Berthier getting a contract for a gendarme Carbine , and enterprising Engineer that has been spending time working on a Gas power Auto loader , gets to make something Rimless , The new French Gendarme 7X43mm Rimless Cartridge

Similar analogies work for example
Britain Colonial Trooper Carbine
any European country with an empire with the Need for a Paramilitary Group

Now how useful would a Auto Loading Carbine be is some Enterprising solders play with it and make it a Full Auto, in the Trenches of WW1 Or earlier.

Or possible a weapon made for a Foreign power Say China where Weapons dealer tries to Sell these Smaller Framed Asians a weapon there size, How easier would it be to Sell to the politicians back home "I am Selling the Chinese a weak weapon not a real size one" . Years later some Asian Country has Rebels kick over bearing Europeans Nations Butt in some battles due to these Little Guns that are supposedly so weak.

Alspo here has chance of pushing a weapon that needs to be made with few resources and simple Manufacturing Technology.

One of the advantage for the Sten and UZI , They needed few conventional weapon making resources to make from scratch

Development of weapons often has to Run against the Old Guard in Military circles. Take the development out of there hands, and by chance a weapon created for something else other than the Perceived needs of the Military, That is suddenly found useful,

 

[Bearcat]

USA

The US in WW2 produced insane amounts of rifles. If you can get the US to adopt a first gen assault weapon instead of the Garand in 1941, there will be millions of them made, and the war surplus will be used all over the world for a century. So tinkering with OTL to get an American AR in 1940-1 will probably do the trick.

 

[Campbell1004]

Interesting AH challenge. I guess I do not know enough about the technical aspects of firearm engineering to imagine how Kalashnikov could have possibly made a better assault rifle at the time.

I do know, however that while the AK-47 is not the first assault rifle, it is one of the earliest successful production model assault rifles, the first being the German STG-44. I think the AK is the second successful assault rifle to be put into mass production. The STG was a prototype for Kalashnikov's rifle, which was also influenced by the Simonov. Correct me if I am wrong, but the earlier models you mention, the turn-of-the-century Italian and Russian ones, were not assault rifles but more like light machineguns, man portable machine guns in the configuration of a rifle. Small nitpick I know, but the Cei-Rigotti and Federov Avtomat would have probably been clunky and unweildy, probably requiring a bipod for effective use. Assault rifles are compact, lightweight automatic weapons.

The technological prerequisites for an assault rifle are: (1) a reliable semiautomatic rifle, and (2) a reliable submachinegun design. (An SMG is not to be confused with a machinegun. The German term for sub-machinegun is machine pistola, machine pistol, essentially a small, handheld automatic weapon that fires handgun ammo.) The first successfully mass produced assault rifle was conceived as a scaled-up SMG, one large enough to fire rifle, rather than pistol, ammo. The earliest assault rifles were developed by crossing a carbine with a submachine gun, firing smaller rifle rounds.

Based on this, one can not get the sturdy, compact, relatively lightweight Avtomat Kalashnikov much earlier than the OTL date, at least not without an earlier POD. One would instead get a clunky, high-maintenance machinegun-rifle, or at best a BAR type gun. Early submachineguns may have been built either from "handguns-up," or from "machineguns-down," or perhaps by constructing an intermediate sized fully automatic weapon from scratch. (I am not exactly certain which approach was used, but probably all three methods were used to find the best SMG design.) Once someone is able to perfect the semiautomatic rifle and perfect the submachinegun, an assault rifle may soon follow. After all, semiautomatic rifles uncommon and sub-machine guns were unavailable until the interwar years.

I never said you had to make Kalashnikov make the gun earlier than he did, the challenge is to have another industrial superpower design an effective automatic assault rifle and have it become the tool of every third world country civil war.

OTL
Soviet Union - Kalashnikov - Major use in Balkans and African Nations

ATL
Imperial Empire of Japan - Type 101 Automatic Rifle - Major use in Asian and African Nations

 

[Campbell1004]

Interesting AH challenge. I guess I do not know enough about the technical aspects of firearm engineering to imagine how Kalashnikov could have possibly made a better assault rifle at the time.

I do know, however that while the AK-47 is not the first assault rifle, it is one of the earliest successful production model assault rifles, the first being the German STG-44. I think the AK is the second successful assault rifle to be put into mass production. The STG was a prototype for Kalashnikov's rifle, which was also influenced by the Simonov. Correct me if I am wrong, but the earlier models you mention, the turn-of-the-century Italian and Russian ones, were not assault rifles but more like light machineguns, man portable machine guns in the configuration of a rifle. Small nitpick I know, but the Cei-Rigotti and Federov Avtomat would have probably been clunky and unweildy, probably requiring a bipod for effective use. Assault rifles are compact, lightweight automatic weapons.

The technological prerequisites for an assault rifle are: (1) a reliable semiautomatic rifle, and (2) a reliable submachinegun design. (An SMG is not to be confused with a machinegun. The German term for sub-machinegun is machine pistola, machine pistol, essentially a small, handheld automatic weapon that fires handgun ammo.) The first successfully mass produced assault rifle was conceived as a scaled-up SMG, one large enough to fire rifle, rather than pistol, ammo. The earliest assault rifles were developed by crossing a carbine with a submachine gun, firing smaller rifle rounds.

Based on this, one can not get the sturdy, compact, relatively lightweight Avtomat Kalashnikov much earlier than the OTL date, at least not without an earlier POD. One would instead get a clunky, high-maintenance machinegun-rifle, or at best a BAR type gun. Early submachineguns may have been built either from "handguns-up," or from "machineguns-down," or perhaps by constructing an intermediate sized fully automatic weapon from scratch. (I am not exactly certain which approach was used, but probably all three methods were used to find the best SMG design.) Once someone is able to perfect the semiautomatic rifle and perfect the submachinegun, an assault rifle may soon follow. After all, semiautomatic rifles uncommon and sub-machine guns were unavailable until the interwar years.

I never said you had to make Kalashnikov make the gun earlier than he did, the challenge is to have another industrial superpower design an effective automatic assault rifle and have it become the tool of every third world country civil war.

OTL
Soviet Union - Kalashnikov - Major use in Balkans and African Nations

ATL
Imperial Empire of Japan - Type 101 Automatic Rifle - Major use in Asian and African Nations

The Challenge
Create the timeline that explains how this new weapon comes to power as the most reliable for third world militias/armies/bandits/terrorists. Also create some information for the weapon.

 

[Kome]

Zastava's seem to be insanely popular in otl. Maybe if Yugoslavia had the industry to produce more and export them world wide they could fit this. But they seem to just be superior copies/improved versions of the AK.

 

[Fearless Leader]

What about having the US develop an alternate M-1 Carbine?

In OTL the M1 Carbine used the .30 Carbine round, which was basically a suped-up pistol round leading to rather mediocre performance...But WI they went with something bigger?

Say John Pedersen, the designer of the Pedersen Rifle ( a competitor to the Garand) returns to his initial design and the .276 round. Weakening (and shortening) the round somewhat he comes up with a design that is markedly similiar to a modern assault rifle. After some combat trials, it is selected to begin production as the M-1 Carbine.

Unlike OTL, TTL's M-1 Carbine is markedly more popular with the American troops. The only real complaint being it's relatively small magazine (15 rounds). Later variants introduced a 30 round Magazine that would become much more popular. Due to it's popularity, it quickly comes to equip large numbers of units in the American military with some 8 million being built (2 million more than OTL).

One popular wartime conversion gave the M-1 Automatic fire. Though not officially authorized, many GI's made the neccessary modifications giving themselves de-facto Assault rifles. The introduction of the Stg-44 provided enough imputus for the US government to make such a modification official leading to the M-2 Carbine being produced in 1945.

The M-2 Carbine would become the defacto infantry weapon of the United States Armed Forces following WWII, replacing the Garand almost entirely. An excellent weapon it's selective fire capacity would lead to it becoming widely proliferated and produced in all the NATO nations as well as being widely exported to 3rd world nations abroad.

Though the Soviet Competitor, the AK-47 did have some advantages over the M-2, most notably a heavier round. It's poor accuracy would lead to many nations choosing the equally durable M-2 over the inaccurate AK-47.
Though phased out of service in the 1970's in favour of the M-3 in most NATO countries, (the M-3 =TTL's equivalent of the M-16). The M-2/M-1 remains the most widely produced weapon in the world with many countries still building them to this very day.

 

[Paul MacQ]

Taking inspiration of the other Russian weapon the SKS decided on this Idea as a starting point

Well looking at 2 Nations that adopted a Relatively weak round with performance similar to Assault rifle Japan and Italy
Enter into this World and 3rd Son of the head of the Beretta Family owned Business Fabbrica d'Armi Pietro Beretta
An inquisitive and Talented Engineer working for the Family Business on the Year 1893 We will call him Benito Beretta, Now this young Engineer with too much time on his hands is sent off to look at. Italy had a reputation of using ideas and designs from other Nations and and implementing them in Modified form in there own Arsenals Examples being newly introduced Carcano and the Italians prevous rifle the M1870 Vetterli od basically Swiss design
Now the Beretta Company had a proud history of making weapons dating back to 1526. and been in the Family al this time. Yet had not as yet been in the Market of Military Firearms. Young Benito was looking at something to Offer the Italian Army despite them just adopting a New Rifle.
While on one of his Field trips and Meets an Kindred spirit in the Form of Colonel Manuel Mondragn Visiting Swiss Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft
With the Prospect of Manufacturing his Rifle design http://www.cruffler.com/historic-february01.html) With the assistance of one Swiss Designer Colonel Rubin . A Self loading rifle Chambered for a odd yet powerful round the 5.2x68mm Rubin
Impressed with the design and being a like minded individual Benito is shown working example of the weapon , Yet not impressed with the seeming Fragile weapon using this massively powerful round, Thinking he could do better, Benito being a diplomatic sort, Brushes Mondragon ego enough with compliments and admiration spending several weeks Helping and giving helpful suggestions and examining the weapon in fine Detail. Finally with wanting little to do with the Italian Colonel Rubin convinces Mondragon to send the Young Benito on his way, Now this hot Blooded Italian is upset and Leaving there company. Sets off home with his own notes and Idea’s for making a better weapon. Will show these 2 never upset a Beretta
On getting home and meeting with his father, Bothering the Older Italian into letting him have some workshop space and a few of the companies employees to work on his own Rifle, Deciding on Making something in the Calibre of rimless 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano as a Specialist weapon even if not able to convince the Royal Army to adopt it as there main weapon as they have put most of there Monufacturing and resources already into the Carcano rifle

Now the 6.5mm Round at this time would have it’s advantages and Disadvantages compared to other selections
It is a less powerful round than many of the Rounds coming into service with other Nations leading to a possible Lighter Self-loading weapon possible,
Also on the down side, there seem to have had inconsistencies in powder types. Leading to Troubles on Gating the Gases from the Barrel and how strong a pressure is needed, Even this would lead to the advantage as Benito Beretta by necessity will create a Gas Adjustment Allowing for more gas into Gas cylinder with lower loadings

Working away in frustration with little resources (Allot more than the Poor Mondragon did OTL ) With the guidance of a few old hand from the Beretta family Business in support Benito has several problems to get around including several Patent rights taken out by Mondragon, so starting with a clean sheet but a firm grip of the concepts of a Self-loading rifle Benito spends the next 2 year perfecting his Idea until her comes up with the Final results of his Labours

The Modello 1896 Beretta
Too get around the Patents and some of the Problems of the Mondragon Benito has reversed the location of the Gas cylinder to above the Barrel, and a 4 point adjustment just above the Barrel allowing more Gas into the cylinder to get over issues of different power loading and Build up of powder residue.

Other than and a slightly Fluted chamber to help issues with violent Spent case extraction the Weapon looks very similar of OTLs SKS rifle with a knob at the end of the Gas chamber above Barrel for Gas Adjustment
Inspiration being the SKS will make this weapons only slightly longer yet heavier to start with yet light enough not to be to bulky
10-round internal box magazine, 10-round stripper clip-fed or individual round loading This is not compatible with the Carcano Rifle clip yet using same ammunition
Weight 4.25 kg (9.35 lb) Length 1050 mm (41.4in ), Barrel length 550 mm (21.65 in )

I have not done a timeline for it’s introduction to the world just making a weapon as a president to start with or developing how this gets into third world countries
Italy has just adopted a new Weapon yet despite Army showing some interest and might go to something like the Italian Navy as Demand for the Carcano will be outstripping supply. Also possibly the San Marco Marines or Carabinieri as other options

 

[Lord Brisbane]

How about this: A shorter barrelled version of the Charlton Automatic Rifle? This is the standard one:

It took an Englishman living in the Hawkes Bay during WWII to convert a bolt action 303 rifle into a machine gun capable of a rate of fire equivalent to today’s M16 rifle.

It was quite heavy, but weight savings could be made by removing the bipod, subsituting the wood for light weight metals or composite material/plastics, and a shorter barrell will save weight as well. Although it uses a full-power rifle round (British rimmed .303), maybe a less powerful round could be developed, or converted to 7.62. Since it used the same cartridge as the Bren, and that was successfully converted to 7.62 we could see that happening.

OR

In Vietnam, a number of Australian units modified their L1A1's to have a short barrell and a full automatic mode. It supposedly packed one hell of a punch and was well regarded. Maybe that could be adopted on a large scale in the third world since the basic design was good and could be found around the world.

 

[Campbell1004]

The weapon does not need to be manufactured by an existing super power. You can create your own super power and explain what their version of the Kalashnikov would be.

 

[Urban fox]

More Dakka:

Never enough Dakka.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

Italy has just adopted a new Weapon yet despite Army showing some interest and might go to something like the Italian Navy as Demand for the Carcano will be outstripping supply. Also possibly the San Marco Marines or Carabinieri as other options

I like the idea of an Italian assault rifle, in part because the 6.5 Carcano is such an excellent choice.

The Mondragon is impressive for an early self loading rifle, but Italy has a great SLR tradition of its own. Beretta made the model 1931 and 1937 rifles which were chambered for the 6.5 and 7.35 respectively. There were also several others, including a Scotti rifle. Cei-Rigotti even made an early 6.5mm select fire rifle. However none were accepted into service for one problem or another. Nearly all early SLRs had design problems.

Looking at the automatic actions of early war era, I think the most promising was the Hungarian 39M submachine gun's Kiraly lever delayed blow back action. This is now used in the French FAMAS rifle.

It would be relatively easy for some company like Beretta to develop the action into a rifle. Both 6.5 and 7.35 models would be made as semi automatic rifles with 20 round detachable magazines. The 6.5 variant could be developed into a select fire assault rifle and become the preferred rifle of the Italian forces.

Another possible action would be the inertia lock in the Benelli shotguns. Granted this design was post war, I mention it because its so simple and ingenious. Both this system and the aforementioned Kiraly lock are excellent for mass production.

The Italian arms industry was apparently allowed to continue small arms exports post war. The excellent Beretta submachine gun for example was a best seller and provided needed income. Our Italian assault rifle could follow a similar path to export success. Production licenses could be sold far and wide, compared with the Soviets who jealously guarded the AK until the mid 1950s. In this time line the Italians would have entrenched themselves in the world markets by then.

 

[Landshark]

The French also nearly made it into the record books with the first selective-fire rifle using purpose-designed intermediate ammunition. During WW1 they made some use of the semi-automatic Winchester Model 1907 in .351 and the Model 1910 in .401 Win SL (self-loading) cartridges; the rifle design was very simple, being blowback only. While these were mainly used by aircrew, in 1917 France placed an order for 2,200 of an automatic version of the M1907 for use by special assault soldiers. At the same time, they were modifying the .351 SL cartridge by necking it down to accept an 8mm bullet, creating the 8mm Ribeyrolle. – arguably the first purpose-designed intermediate military cartridge. The war ended before anything came of this, but it is not hard to see that had it lasted for another year or two, French troops would have been equipped with an assault rifle. As it was, neither the Ribeyrolle, nor a 7mm version designed in the 1920s, made further progress.

The Ribeyrolle itself:

My scenario is this.

during the early 1900's the Cei-Rigotti is demonstrated in Britain as per OTL, however in this timeline it generates enough interest that the Brimingham Small Arms Company purchases a license to manufacture the weapon. After several years of development to improve the rifle's reliable the Cei-Rigotti is just about ready for final testing when the First World War breaks out. The rifle, now known as the BSA Self Loading Rifle (SLR), is issued to the Royal Flying Corps, (In OTL both the French and Germans issued self loading rifles to their air crews), chambered for 7mm Spanish Mauser.

BSA continues to work on the rifle throughout the war and eventually, like the French with the Ribeyrolle, the British Army requests a selective fire version in an intermediate calibre for use in the planned offensives of 1918. The P18 Machine Carbine, (OTL British nomenclenture for sub machine gun), is rather different looking from other rifles. It has a pistol grip to improve control on full auto and the foregrip only reaches halfwat along the barrel, it has a curved thirty round magazine and the rear sight is adapted from that of the P14 rifle. It is also chambered for a new round of ammunition, the 7mm x 39mm British.

The British are somewhat quicker off the mark in producing the new weapon and have a few thousand of them in service by the end of June 1918. The P18 sees it's first action in the hands of Canadian soldiers in August of that year. The rifle performs well, if not flawlessly, and BSA starts to design an improved Mark 2 based on feedback from the front in appreciation of orders for more weapons.

The P18 makes a great impression on the German soldiers who are on the receiving end of it. The Germans dub the P18 the "Sturm Gewehr", which is translated into English as "Assault Rifle", a name that sticks.

World War 1 ends before the P18 Mk2 or any of it's rivals are put into production and the post war glut of weapons mean there are few P18's produced or sold during the next decade, (a situation similar to the Thompson in OTL), however BSA continue refining the rifle and many junior officers who became familiar with it in 1918 rise through the ranks during the 20's and 30's.

In 1933 when the Nazis come to power and rearmament starts to become an issue in Britain the P18 in it's latest developed form is a natural for production and by 1939 the BSA Assault Rifle, (In 7mm x 43mm), is the standard issue weapon of the British Infantry.

Of course the Germans have their own assault rifle by this time.

After WW2 the Allies have millions of P18's, (As the weapon is still popularly known), produced on four continents by seven countries, and in the years that follow many of these filter down to the newly formed armies of independent countries in Africa and Asia.

 

[Campbell1004]

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Full of win. Is that some of your work? Photoshop?

 

[Landshark]

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Full of win. Is that some of your work? Photoshop?

Nope, that is an actual Ribeyrolle automatic rifle, as manufactured for the French Army in 1918. The text I should add is from Tony Williams excellent military technology site, which is full of useful information on 20th century gun and ammunition developments.