Alternate Heir: Scotland 1286-1290

[Olena]

Name: Eleanor of House Dunkeld

Title: Princess of Scots

DOB: September 24, 1273 (Stirling, Scotland)

Father: Alexander III of Scots (b. 1241- d. 1286)

Mother: Margaret of England (b. 1240- d. 1275)

Spouse: Albrecht Von Hapsburg (b.1270—natural son of Rudolf I of Germany)



Prior to his death in the year 1286, Alexander III arranged a matrilineal marriage for his youngest daughter Eleanor with the natural son of the-then King of Germany, Rudolf I, by a high-born Lothringian mistress. This was in efforts to preserve the Dunkeld Dynasty from extinction, as she remained his only living child; however, she remained second in the line of succession to her niece, Princess Margaret of Norway, daughter of Margaret of Scotland and King Eric II. The two were married December 25, 1285 at Jedburgh Abbey, only two months after the marriage of her father to Yolande of Dreux, and Eleanor was made Countess of Lothian—taking up residence in Stirling Castle. When the king died while riding his horse in 1286, the Guardians of Scotland formed per the dictation of parliament, and assumed control of the government, swearing to administer the realm until the Princess Margaret could come to claim or throne or the pregnant dowager queen could give birth to a son that might displace Margaret—a stillborn child was born in November 1286 and the former was proclaimed the rightful heir. Furthermore, per the will of Alexander III, Eleanor was to be created regent once she achieved the age of 15.



By 1287 Eric had yet to send his daughter from Norway, and discussions had begun with England to marry the infant queen to her cousin Edward of Carnarvon—much to the Scots’ irritation. Many grew to favor aunt over niece, and in that same year a rebellion was raised in her name, granted without her consent. Amid the rebellion, Princess Eleanor delivered a robust and healthy daughter, which she named after herself. The uprising lead by lairds John Balliol and Robert de Brus was quickly put asunder, and Eleanor denied any involvement. In 1288 she officially became regent, and the next year attended the negotiations between Eric and Edward I of England. The following year, 1290, the Maid of Norway set sail for her kingdom but died en-route that September. Eleanor was declared Queen of Scots and crowned in October. She gave birth to her second child and heir, Prince Albert on October 15th at the palace of Scone. Her husband and consort was created Duke of Lothian and given a seat on the royal council.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

@Olena, I'm assuming the "Albrecht, natural son of Rudolf I" is Albrecht von Schenkenberg, Count of Löwenstein (1255-1304)? The question is what advantage Scotland brings for the Habsburgs? Sure, in the 1270s Rudolf was negotiating a marriage for his son Hartmann with Katherine of England (daughter of Edward I) but I'm unsure why he would care for (or even KNOW where Scotland is)

 

[VVD0D95]

@Olena, I'm assuming the "Albrecht, natural son of Rudolf I" is Albrecht von Schenkenberg, Count of Löwenstein (1255-1304)? The question is what advantage Scotland brings for the Habsburgs? Sure, in the 1270s Rudolf was negotiating a marriage for his son Hartmann with Katherine of England (daughter of Edward I) but I'm unsure why he would care for (or even KNOW where Scotland is)

And why a man as proud as Alexander III would marry his daughter to an illegitimate son

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

And why a man as proud as Alexander III would marry his daughter to an illegitimate son

Especially one of a dynasty so comparatively parvenu (at this point) as the Habsburgs. I'm tempted to think of a comparison to when François I heard Henry Fitzroy (lately created duke of Richmond) was being offered for his daughter. François joked in private about how with the king of England being the grandson of one Welsh bastard he [Henry] thought that his own bastard should step one further and marry a French princess this time.

 

[Ivan Lupo]

I would have to imagine that a younger daughter of Alexander is more than likely to be married to one of the leading Scottish nobles. There's also potentially Eric VI of Denmark who would have been king at a young age.

 

[Olena]

@Kellan Sullivan @VVD0D95 @Ivan Lupo Thank you for replying! I appreciate your input. I recently began playing CK2 and he was often a suggested spouse for a female character of the time period.

Scotland, however less "shiny" than England grants valuable Northern access and an advantage over the English military, hence France and Scotland's Auld Alliance.

Though Albrecht is an illegitimate son, he is the son of the King of the Germans, thus the stand-in HRE. With a butterfly readjustment of his age he stands as a relatively suitable candidate that could agree to a matrilineal arrangement with a Scottish princess, as he has no name of his own; however, I see why Alexander might disagree to subjecting his highborn daughter to such a match. However, @Ivan Lupo I don't see the proud Alexander offering her hand to one of his own subjects given she's one of his only heirs and a female nonetheless, this would mean the end of his own dynasty and the handing of the throne to a lesser house. Margaret means the end of House Dunkeld, but she is the daughter of a king and comes with the backing of her father's country (perhaps the only reason Alexander wouldn't declare Eleanor heiress over her).

Alternate Suitors:

1. Eric II of Norway (b. 1268)

-Her brother-in-law and father of her niece. He later seemed interested in securing Scotland for himself, perhaps Alexander might agree to replacing a dead daughter with a live one? If she bore of son he would be heir to Scotland & Norway. Not sure how agreeable Eric might be towards marrying his wife's sister (*cough* Henry VIII *cough*), but papal dispensation could be secured.

2. Eric VI of Denmark (b.1274)

-Not my personal favorite suggestion, but he IS a king; however, the Danish throne is still elective at this point. The marriage would be prestigious, this goes without saying, as the family had been in control of Denmark for sometime, but the political situation in Denmark is perhaps even less pleasant than in Scotland (Age of Decay, murder of Eric V, war with Eric II in 1289). Given relations with Norway, Alexander would hardly want to anger his son-in-law with such a marriage. Potential succession war between Scotland, Norway, Denmark, and maybe England?

3. Charles of France (b.1270)

-Early start to the Auld Alliance? France would likely be more accepting/appreciative of such a match than Germany. As the son/brother of a king he's of sufficient rank, and what's more he showed great interest in becoming one at several points in his life. Furthermore, he's later noted for being an excellent military commander. Either his brother or father would likely approve of his marrying a princess with the high-potential of becoming a king (whose children stood a chance of also inheriting France).

4. Suggestions?

 

[VVD0D95]

@Kellan Sullivan @VVD0D95 @Ivan Lupo Thank you for replying! I appreciate your input. I recently began playing CK2 and he was often a suggested spouse for a female character of the time period.

Scotland, however less "shiny" than England grants valuable Northern access and an advantage over the English military, hence France and Scotland's Auld Alliance.

Though Albrecht is an illegitimate son, he is the son of the King of the Germans, thus the stand-in HRE. With a butterfly readjustment of his age he stands as a relatively suitable candidate that could agree to a matrilineal arrangement with a Scottish princess, as he has no name of his own; however, I see why Alexander might disagree to subjecting his highborn daughter to such a match. However, @Ivan Lupo I don't see the proud Alexander offering her hand to one of his own subjects given she's one of his only heirs and a female nonetheless, this would mean the end of his own dynasty and the handing of the throne to a lesser house. Margaret means the end of House Dunkeld, but she is the daughter of a king and comes with the backing of her father's country (perhaps the only reason Alexander wouldn't declare Eleanor heiress over her).

Alternate Suitors:

1. Eric II of Norway (b. 1268)

-Her brother-in-law and father of her niece. He later seemed interested in securing Scotland for himself, perhaps Alexander might agree to replacing a dead daughter with a live one? If she bore of son he would be heir to Scotland & Norway. Not sure how agreeable Eric might be towards marrying his wife's sister (*cough* Henry VIII *cough*), but papal dispensation could be secured.

2. Eric VI of Denmark (b.1274)

-Not my personal favorite suggestion, but he IS a king; however, the Danish throne is still elective at this point. The marriage would be prestigious, this goes without saying, as the family had been in control of Denmark for sometime, but the political situation in Denmark is perhaps even less pleasant than in Scotland (Age of Decay, murder of Eric V, war with Eric II in 1289). Given relations with Norway, Alexander would hardly want to anger his son-in-law with such a marriage. Potential succession war between Scotland, Norway, Denmark, and maybe England?

3. Charles of France (b.1270)

-Early start to the Auld Alliance? France would likely be more accepting/appreciative of such a match than Germany. As the son/brother of a king he's of sufficient rank, and what's more he showed great interest in becoming one at several points in his life. Furthermore, he's later noted for being an excellent military commander. Either his brother or father would likely approve of his marrying a princess with the high-potential of becoming a king (whose children stood a chance of also inheriting France).

4. Suggestions?

He could also propose her as a bride to Thomas of Lancaster, a cousin who is of the right age. Such a marriage would strenghten ties with England, something that wouldn't be a bad thing to do given the situation ALexander finds himself in without surviving sons etc. Though he could also look to the Low Countries.

 

[Olena]

He could also propose her as a bride to Thomas of Lancaster, a cousin who is of the right age. Such a marriage would strenghten ties with England, something that wouldn't be a bad thing to do given the situation ALexander finds himself in without surviving sons etc. Though he could also look to the Low Countries.

That's an interesting suggestion. Given their difference in age, she'd assume the Scots throne prior to when the marriage could be officially performed, so it would presumably be arranged by Alexander prior to his demise. Would she then be sent to English court or remain in Scotland?

As for a low-country husband, Guy of Namur is around the same age (b.1272) and is the brother of her former sister-in-law, Margaret. Also, there's Henry, Count of Luxembourg (future Henry VII HRE).

 

[VVD0D95]

That's an interesting suggestion. Given their difference in age, she'd assume the Scots throne prior to when the marriage could be officially performed, so it would presumably be arranged by Alexander prior to his demise. Would she then be sent to English court or remain in Scotland?

As for a low-country husband, Guy of Namur is around the same age (b.1272) and is the brother of her former sister-in-law, Margaret. Also, there's Henry, Count of Luxembourg (future Henry VII HRE).

One imagines she’d remain in Scotland as the reigning queen rather than be sent southwards.

And Guy of Namur would work

 

[Olena]

One imagines she’d remain in Scotland as the reigning queen rather than be sent southwards.

No no, I meant prior to her succession. Brides would sometimes be sent to the same court as their intended during the betrothal. I would think that her uncle Edward might request it, given his historical interest in Scotland. Not to mention, his own son is going to become engaged to Queen Margaret. Then again, if Alexander agrees to grant her a county upon the engagement, Thomas might be relocated to Scotland.

 

[VVD0D95]

No no, I meant prior to her succession. Brides would sometimes be sent to the same court as their intended during the betrothal. I would think that her uncle Edward might request it, given his historical interest in Scotland. Not to mention, his own son is going to become engaged to Queen Margaret. Then again, if Alexander agrees to grant her a county upon the engagement, Thomas might be relocated to Scotland.

Indeed all depends on the finer details of married before she ascends then yes she’d head south

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

That's an interesting suggestion. Given their difference in age, she'd assume the Scots throne prior to when the marriage could be officially performed, so it would presumably be arranged by Alexander prior to his demise. Would she then be sent to English court or remain in Scotland?

As for a low-country husband, Guy of Namur is around the same age (b.1272) and is the brother of her former sister-in-law, Margaret. Also, there's Henry, Count of Luxembourg (future Henry VII HRE).

The Enguerrand V, Sieur de Coucy married Christine de Baliol in 1280. Enguerrand's Alexander's cousin, owner of one of the OLDEST baronies in France (reasonably powerful too). He also pledged allegiance to Edward I OTL, although Enguerrand VI fought on the French side at Crécy and Enguerrand VII married Edward III's eldest daughter.

Heinrich of Luxemburg ain't marrying elsewhere (least of all Scotland when his state doesn't even have a coastline!) And he was re-engaged to Katharina of Habsburg with startling rapidity after his first wife's death. Namur likewise has no coastline. Coucy, on the otherhand, controlled Beauvais, Amiens, and a couple other territories directly next door to Edward II's countship of Ponthieu.

Otherwise a duke of Brittany is another option.

 

[Jonathan1997]

@Kellan Sullivan @VVD0D95 @Ivan Lupo Thank you for replying! I appreciate your input. I recently began playing CK2 and he was often a suggested spouse for a female character of the time period.

Scotland, however less "shiny" than England grants valuable Northern access and an advantage over the English military, hence France and Scotland's Auld Alliance.

Though Albrecht is an illegitimate son, he is the son of the King of the Germans, thus the stand-in HRE. With a butterfly readjustment of his age he stands as a relatively suitable candidate that could agree to a matrilineal arrangement with a Scottish princess, as he has no name of his own; however, I see why Alexander might disagree to subjecting his highborn daughter to such a match. However, @Ivan Lupo I don't see the proud Alexander offering her hand to one of his own subjects given she's one of his only heirs and a female nonetheless, this would mean the end of his own dynasty and the handing of the throne to a lesser house. Margaret means the end of House Dunkeld, but she is the daughter of a king and comes with the backing of her father's country (perhaps the only reason Alexander wouldn't declare Eleanor heiress over her).

Alternate Suitors:

1. Eric II of Norway (b. 1268)

-Her brother-in-law and father of her niece. He later seemed interested in securing Scotland for himself, perhaps Alexander might agree to replacing a dead daughter with a live one? If she bore of son he would be heir to Scotland & Norway. Not sure how agreeable Eric might be towards marrying his wife's sister (*cough* Henry VIII *cough*), but papal dispensation could be secured.

2. Eric VI of Denmark (b.1274)

-Not my personal favorite suggestion, but he IS a king; however, the Danish throne is still elective at this point. The marriage would be prestigious, this goes without saying, as the family had been in control of Denmark for sometime, but the political situation in Denmark is perhaps even less pleasant than in Scotland (Age of Decay, murder of Eric V, war with Eric II in 1289). Given relations with Norway, Alexander would hardly want to anger his son-in-law with such a marriage. Potential succession war between Scotland, Norway, Denmark, and maybe England?

3. Charles of France (b.1270)

-Early start to the Auld Alliance? France would likely be more accepting/appreciative of such a match than Germany. As the son/brother of a king he's of sufficient rank, and what's more he showed great interest in becoming one at several points in his life. Furthermore, he's later noted for being an excellent military commander. Either his brother or father would likely approve of his marrying a princess with the high-potential of becoming a king (whose children stood a chance of also inheriting France).

4. Suggestions?

If I am reading this right you could marry Queen Elonor to king Edward the first of England because uncle and niece marring is acceptable in European mediaeval society. And any son born from the Union could combined both Scottish and Plantagenet dynasties and the strong possibility Edward second son by his second wife could displace or usurp the future Edward II of England. This is a strong possibility because Edward II was a notorious bad king for not filling the feudal contract by alienating his lords with favourites like piers gaveston.

 

[VVD0D95]

If I am reading this right you could marry Queen Elonor to king Edward the first of England because uncle and niece marring is acceptable in European mediaeval society. And any son born from the Union could combined both Scottish and Plantagenet dynasties and the strong possibility Edward second son by his second wife could displace or usurp the future Edward II of England. This is a strong possibility because Edward II was a notorious bad king for not filling the feudal contract by alienating his lords with favourites like piers gaveston.

You’d need a dispensation from the pope and also need Edward to see it as more pressing than a marriage to France

 

[Jonathan1997]

You’d need a dispensation from the pope and also need Edward to see it as more pressing than a marriage to France

I see your point it just depends on wever the author or King Edward would view the priorety in securing Scotland in order to protect the North England thereby enabling him to focus the rest of his reign on France securing Gascony and possibly pieces of the old Angavine empire. I would also like to add my interpretation of king Edward the first of England is that he's a king that is trying to undo the failures of his grandfather king John the first and his own father Henry iii also his famous uncle Richard the Lionheart. This is why he was so so determined to crush the Scots and the Welsh respectively in order to restore authority in his dynasty that haven't seen a decent king since Henry II of of England who died in 1189 until the ascension of king Edward the first in 1274.

 

[VVD0D95]

I see your point it just depends on wever the author or King Edward would view the priorety in securing Scotland in order to protect the North England thereby enabling him to focus the rest of his reign on France securing Gascony and possibly pieces of the old Angavine empire. I would also like to add my interpretation of king Edward the first of England is that he's a king that is trying to undo the failures of his grandfather king John the first and his own father Henry iii also his famous uncle Richard the Lionheart. This is why he was so so determined to crush the Scots and the Welsh respectively in order to restore authority in his dynasty that haven't seen a decent king since Henry II of of England who died in 1189 until the ascension of king Edward the first in 1274.

Fair enough but he could still get his nephew married to the lass and secure things tbay way rather than get into a mess by marrying her himself

 

[Jonathan1997]

This is very true it just depends on how badly king Edward wants to be the undisputed master of Great Britain or would it be Brittany not too sure could be Britannica. It also depends and how much the author or Edward wants to be King Arthur come again.

 

[Olena]

This is very true it just depends on how badly king Edward wants to be the undisputed master of Great Britain or would it be Brittany not too sure could be Britannica.

Britannia

 

[Jonathan1997]

Britannia

Thanks thought it was one of those

 

[Olena]

The Enguerrand V, Sieur de Coucy married Christine de Baliol in 1280. Enguerrand's Alexander's cousin, owner of one of the OLDEST baronies in France (reasonably powerful too). He also pledged allegiance to Edward I OTL, although Enguerrand VI fought on the French side at Crécy and Enguerrand VII married Edward III's eldest daughter.

Otherwise a duke of Brittany is another option.

Enguerrand and his children seem to be a bit out of range/availability for Eleanor, in my opinion. Not to mention, his inheritance didn't occur until the 1311, so he doesn't automatically come with any real security. Sure, he was raised in Scotland (for a time), but he's a bit older than I'd peg Alexander being interested in for her. He'd be around 32 when she was born, and there's the potential of him dying before he's able to even sire an heir off her. Not to say such matches didn't happen, but it doesn't seem like a strong enough marriage for a potential queen-regnant (prior to his own succession).

Brittany is much more interesting, mayhaps Arthur doesn't marry in 1275 or Marie de Limoges dies prior to 1283. That or Eleanor could be offered to his younger brother John.