Alternate Colonization and Contacts

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

So, this is a super-thread for all alternate ideas regarding colonizations and first contacts between various cultures. And by alternate, I don't mean little stuff like "Spain gets Hawaii" or "Burgundy somehow takes North America". I mean, what would the result of non-European cultures exploring the world and possibly colonizing other places in their place be. For example, what would be the consequences of China maybe going east and visiting Polynesian islands and finally arriving at Mesoamerica. Or any other country you can think of. Not just political ramifications as well, I am really interested in cultural ramifications. Like for example what the Japanese would think about the Maya. And please don't nitpick the plausibility of these examples, they are just that, examples.

Alternatively, and I think this is a cooler and nicer idea, what would be the effect of no colonization going on? A world where Europe nor any other region goes around the globe taking over every tribe they see and forcing them to adopt their ways.

 

[Laurentia]

It might have to go in ASB then, since you'd be required to change the mentalities of everyone involved for the second scenario.

 

[wolf_brother]

I have a special place in my heart for a successful Mali contact scenario. IOTL during the early 14th century the Mali Empire built ocean going ships for trade, exploration, and conquest using Arab techniques and ship-buildings from as far as Egypt and across North Africa. These ships were large enough to house carpenters, smiths, navigators, merchants, potters, jewelers, weavers, magicians, diviners, thinkers, and a large cohort of warriors, and that every vessel tugged a supply-boat with food for two years, dried meat, grain, preserved fruit in ceramic jars, and gold for trade.

Ibn Fadlullah al-Umari (1300–1348), in his encyclopaedic work Masalik Al-Absar, relates a story obtained from the Mamluk governor of Cairo, Ibn Amir Hajib. While Musa I was visiting Cairo as part of his pilgrimage to Mecca, Ibn Amir Hajib asked how he had succeeded to the throne, and this is what Ibn Amir Hajib reported he was told:

"The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (meaning the Atlantic): he wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years. He ordered the captain not to return until they had reached the other end of the ocean, or until he had exhausted the provisions and water. So they set out on their journey. They were absent for a long period, and, at last just one boat returned. When questioned the captain replied: 'O Prince, we navigated for a long period, until we saw in the midst of the ocean a great river which flowing massively. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me, and they were drowned in the great whirlpool and never came out again. I sailed back to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and his men, and one thousand more for water and provisions. Then he conferred the regency on me for the term of his absence, and departed with his men, never to return nor to give a sign of life."

 

[iori]

One of the big questions to go along with this, is the when, for example, the Song Dynasty, Ming Dynasty and Qing would likely react to and act differently then one another to meeting the same group(s).

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Well I don't have specific scenario in mind, so feel free to discuss whichever one you want.

Anyway wolf, how do you think the Malians would react to Native-American cultures? How ingrained was Islam in Mali's society? Wonder if they'd be as zealous as the the Spanish when it came to religion.

One wacky (and probably ASB idea) I thought up was the possibility of Mesoamericans being the explorers/colonists. The only vaguely possible way for this to happen would be, as per my TL, Classic Maya culture does not go through a collapse and continues to grow and the problems that plagued them are handled better. Therefore the weather the Spanish invasions and retain a good deal of autonomy. Over the next two centuries they even pick up Spanish ship-building techniques and skills and start sailing the Pacific, making contact with various Polynesian islands and cultures. The first outsiders contacting Polynesia being Mayan is just too strange and awesome an idea to not explore.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Let's take a big one -- say Christopher Columbus fails to secure backing for his westward voyage. I think it's pretty established that someone in Europe would sooner or later sail west, but unlike Colombus, they likely would calculate the Earth's circumference correctly, leading them to take the Northern route.

Likely scenario, given the PoD -- 1499 or so, Henry Cabot gets English backing. It is the English who end up claiming much of the initial West Hemisphere, slowly sailing south, until 1537 or so they sail west from Florida and run into the Mesoamericans...

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Well, I was kinda looking for discussions on things other than alternate European colonizations. Those are really old, people here discuss that all the time, more often than anyone really should to be honest.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Something different; how about colonisation and contact... between and IN the americas?

Could the Incas one day, if left alone more time, would have sent explorers around, south, north, across the Andes?
Could the metacultural milieux of the Aztecs and others sent peoples north and south?
or the Hurons-Iroquoians expending?

 

[iori]

While Asian colonization is of course semi-popular, it's usually Japan and/or China, however what I think would be interesting is a Indochinese state or Indonesian state doing it.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Something different; how about colonisation and contact... between and IN the americas?

Could the Incas one day, if left alone more time, would have sent explorers around, south, north, across the Andes?
Could the metacultural milieux of the Aztecs and others sent peoples north and south?
or the Hurons-Iroquoians expending?

The Aztecs, had they not been conquered, would certainly have had more pochteca traders headed north to the Pueblo peoples, probably to trade for turquoise among other things. And wherever the pochteca went, Aztec armies were soon to follow. But for logistical reasons I don't see them actually conquering the Pueblo peoples, but certainly they'd take more of the Chichemeca tribes into vassalage under the Triple Alliance. They could also go further south than OTL, but the Maya were by far better seamen and could certainly go much further had the Collapse not happened. As it was, even in the late Postclassic they were still establishing towns in Honduras and going pretty far south by canoe.

While Asian colonization is of course semi-popular, it's usually Japan and/or China, however what I think would be interesting is a Indochinese state or Indonesian state doing it.

Or better yet, and Indian state doing it. The Cholas certainly had a knack for taking places all over Indochina and Indonesia, to the point where the Bay of Bengal was known as the Chola Lake. Had the Cholas not declined and been done in, who knows how far they could've gotten. Maybe establish more control over their Indonesian colonies, forge closer ties with Khmer and Champa, and maybe sail all the way to China, Taiwan, and even Japan. They had a really good navy, so maybe it's possible.

No feedback on the Maya exploring Polynesia idea? Aww, I thought it was pretty cool.

 

[wolf_brother]

Anyway wolf, how do you think the Malians would react to Native-American cultures? How ingrained was Islam in Mali's society? Wonder if they'd be as zealous as the the Spanish when it came to religion.

Well, it will depend on how regular the contact is between Mali and the Americas, and who exactly they encounter. For the latter considering considering the trade winds in the area I imagine the Malian fleet would appear somewhere along the Northern Brazilian coast, possibly landing on the Guiana Shield. That means they're mostly going to encounter Taíno city-states, who, iirc, were seafaring mercantile societies not unlike what was found in the Mediterranean in the Bronze Age. For the former I'm not entirely sure; the Taíno won't have much to offer the Mali, except perhaps as targets for slave raids, but the Mali regularly raided their neighboring African states for slaves so why sail across the Atlantic simply for slaves?

Regarding religion, Islam was important to the Mali, but not in an evangelical way, so I don't see them trying to convert the natives. Really though it will depend on the exact circumstances.

Unlike in the IOTL contact I don't think there will be a clear winner and clear loser here. The Mali are going to get some very good agricultural products that can grow in their own empire that will drastically improve their population base, but that's not going to be for several decades, or more, and in the meantime the Mali Empire was/is crumbling. The natives across the Americas are going to be decimated by disease as per IOTL, but those who survive along the Amazon, in the Caribbean, and in the Andes are likely going to pickup some neat trinkets, perhaps even a technological boost, and certainly new domesticated animals (sheep, pigs, goats, chickens are for sure, if they're really lucky cattle) that will drastically improve their production capabilities.

The most lasting impact of the whole scenario will be a better situated West Africa and a (South) America that gets a shot to potentially catch-up with Afro-Eurasia.

 

[Troyer IV]

I have a special place in my heart for a successful Mali contact scenario. IOTL during the early 14th century the Mali Empire built ocean going ships for trade, exploration, and conquest using Arab techniques and ship-buildings from as far as Egypt and across North Africa. These ships were large enough to house carpenters, smiths, navigators, merchants, potters, jewelers, weavers, magicians, diviners, thinkers, and a large cohort of warriors, and that every vessel tugged a supply-boat with food for two years, dried meat, grain, preserved fruit in ceramic jars, and gold for trade.

Ibn Fadlullah al-Umari (1300–1348), in his encyclopaedic work Masalik Al-Absar, relates a story obtained from the Mamluk governor of Cairo, Ibn Amir Hajib. While Musa I was visiting Cairo as part of his pilgrimage to Mecca, Ibn Amir Hajib asked how he had succeeded to the throne, and this is what Ibn Amir Hajib reported he was told:

I started a TL on that premise, actually. Lost my notes over the summer (got married, house got hit by tornado, lots of other insane things), so I didn't get too far into it. But yeah...

 

[Æsir]

Or better yet, and Indian state doing it. The Cholas certainly had a knack for taking places all over Indochina and Indonesia, to the point where the Bay of Bengal was known as the Chola Lake. Had the Cholas not declined and been done in, who knows how far they could've gotten. Maybe establish more control over their Indonesian colonies, forge closer ties with Khmer and Champa, and maybe sail all the way to China, Taiwan, and even Japan. They had a really good navy, so maybe it's possible.

I know you didn't specifically mention the Americas, but Iori's post seemed to imply to me that was what he was implying so I'll run with it this. The problem I see is the Indian subcontinent is about as far from the Americas as you can get, although establishing trade with east Asia is possible. I believe there was substantial Indian influence in Japan OTL, IIRC an Indian script is sometimes to this day used for religious purposes by Buddhist monks and priests in Japan. And colonizing Australia could be a possibility.

No feedback on the Maya exploring Polynesia idea? Aww, I thought it was pretty cool.

It certainly sounds cool, but possibly difficult. I don't think the Mayas had a presence on the Pacific coast, so you would need to get them there first.

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

The Aztecs, had they not been conquered, would certainly have had more pochteca traders headed north to the Pueblo peoples, probably to trade for turquoise among other things. And wherever the pochteca went, Aztec armies were soon to follow. But for logistical reasons I don't see them actually conquering the Pueblo peoples, but certainly they'd take more of the Chichemeca tribes into vassalage under the Triple Alliance. They could also go further south than OTL, but the Maya were by far better seamen and could certainly go much further had the Collapse not happened. As it was, even in the late Postclassic they were still establishing towns in Honduras and going pretty far south by canoe.

Or better yet, and Indian state doing it. The Cholas certainly had a knack for taking places all over Indochina and Indonesia, to the point where the Bay of Bengal was known as the Chola Lake. Had the Cholas not declined and been done in, who knows how far they could've gotten. Maybe establish more control over their Indonesian colonies, forge closer ties with Khmer and Champa, and maybe sail all the way to China, Taiwan, and even Japan. They had a really good navy, so maybe it's possible.

No feedback on the Maya exploring Polynesia idea? Aww, I thought it was pretty cool.

I definitely like the idea of an Indian state as a colonial power, and the Cholas are AFAIK the best candidates. With the butterflies doing their thing, they might even get a massive exploring/colonizing ball rolling on the subcontinent.

I also like the Mayan idea, for sure, but it's just a tad implausible... But then, weirder things have happened.

Finally, I wholeheartedly approve of the Mali first contact scenario mentioned earlier... West Africa and Western Europe competing for influence in the new world could get... Interesting.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

I know you didn't specifically mention the Americas, but Iori's post seemed to imply to me that was what he was implying so I'll run with it this. The problem I see is the Indian subcontinent is about as far from the Americas as you can get, although establishing trade with east Asia is possible. I believe there was substantial Indian influence in Japan OTL, IIRC an Indian script is sometimes to this day used for religious purposes by Buddhist monks and priests in Japan. And colonizing Australia could be a possibility.



It certainly sounds cool, but possibly difficult. I don't think the Mayas had a presence on the Pacific coast, so you would need to get them there first.

Actually they were around the Pacific coast as far back as they even existed. Many of their earliest sites were up and down the coast, and the Preclassic northern Yucatan sites were much smaller.

 

[wolf_brother]

I started a TL on that premise, actually. Lost my notes over the summer (got married, house got hit by tornado, lots of other insane things), so I didn't get too far into it. But yeah...

Interesting. What was your take on African-American (heh) relations? For that matter who did you expect the Mali to make contact with? If you can remember, por favor.

 

[Lost the game]

how about the cholas expand more along the indonesian archipelago, maybe colonizing the Phillipines, the Mollucas, and Taiwan? Then, Chola , successor states (speaking a pidjin of Tamil and local languages, or perhaps local languages weittern in tamil script) establish themselves in the region, and expand across the Pacific, also settling australia. Meanwhile, the Chola also colonize the coast of East Africa, with successor states arising there and conquering the interior. At the sme time, the Mali establish contact with the peoples of northern Brazil and the carribean, in the long run streangthening both. Therefore, you have a three-way contest for a few coastal colonies and trade with the indians between West Africa, Western Europe, and the Chola successor states, as the Chola-influenced mesoamerican and andean peoples and the taino city-states also compete

 

[kasumigenx]

how about the cholas expand more along the indonesian archipelago, maybe colonizing the Phillipines, the Mollucas, and Taiwan? Then, Chola , successor states (speaking a pidjin of Tamil and local languages, or perhaps local languages weittern in tamil script) establish themselves in the region, and expand across the Pacific, also settling australia. Meanwhile, the Chola also colonize the coast of East Africa, with successor states arising there and conquering the interior. At the sme time, the Mali establish contact with the peoples of northern Brazil and the carribean, in the long run streangthening both. Therefore, you have a three-way contest for a few coastal colonies and trade with the indians between West Africa, Western Europe, and the Chola successor states, as the Chola-influenced mesoamerican and andean peoples and the taino city-states also compete

In OTL the Northern part of the Philippines and The Sulu archipelago were under Sri Vijayan influence and their nobles have a root in Sri Vijaya, while Cebu was ruled by a cadet lineage from Chola.