AHC: More Black slaveowners

Black slaveowners in the United States, usually mentioned in passing in racially heated arguments over things like reparations. Yes, they did exist, big and small, but there were very few of them, mostly freedmen and women early on in the US/Thirteen Colonies, far before the major attempted slave revolts, and far before the planter/political class became preoccupied with maintaining White supremacy in the South.

This is an uphill ASB, given that the color line assisted institution of slavery by making it easier to identify escaped slaves, but how can you maximize Black ownership of slaves in the US, both as a handful owned for domestic work and on larger plantations, more akin to Brazil?

I see a few major hurdles to this: freedmen understand the brutality and shame of slave ownership and very few would wish it on anyone else, and the White planter class may be concerned that such an AHC would undermine their vision of a South run by and for White Anglo-Saxon men.
 
Carter Woodson wrote a fair bit about this topic. There was a fair number of them, but it was most commonly along the lines of Jim gets his freedom from his master. He raises enough money to buy his wife and kids from his old master. He owns them for awhile while playing off his expenses and eventually frees them. If Jim fully enters the middle class maybe he buys a slave or two for his wife to help around the house as well.

The plantation owner that owns dozens or hundreds of slaves that was a condition that blacks rarely reached. Not never, but they had to be very successful to get over the hurdles such as of lenders and other farmers reluctant to work with them.

It was easier in Rome for this to happen for various reasons including there often being a glut of slaves and the price of human beings being very very cheap.
 
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Black slaveowners in the United States, usually mentioned in passing in racially heated arguments over things like reparations. Yes, they did exist, big and small, but there were very few of them, mostly freedmen and women early on in the US/Thirteen Colonies, far before the major attempted slave revolts, and far before the planter/political class became preoccupied with maintaining White supremacy in the South.

This is an uphill ASB, given that the color line assisted institution of slavery by making it easier to identify escaped slaves, but how can you maximize Black ownership of slaves in the US, both as a handful owned for domestic work and on larger plantations, more akin to Brazil?

I see a few major hurdles to this: freedmen understand the brutality and shame of slave ownership and very few would wish it on anyone else, and the White planter class may be concerned that such an AHC would undermine their vision of a South run by and for White Anglo-Saxon men.

How can you maximize African-American slave holders in the USA? The easiest way is to enslave someone else that looks different from either African-Americans or European-Americans. Chinese perhaps? Native Americans? Perhaps the Hispanic population in the SouthWest after the Mexican American war or Hawaiians. Those all fit the bill of having a lower technology, a different language, and a different appearance. Enslaving Chinese or Hawaiians would require slave ships but the others could be taken without even crossing an ocean.
 
The plantation owner that owns dozens or hundreds of slaves that was a condition that blacks rarely reached. Not never, but they had to be very successful to get over the hurdles such as of lenders and other farmers reluctant to work with them.
Are there any examples of black men in the planter class in the United States? I haven't looked into it much specifically but I've never heard of this in passing, excluding some of the mixed race creole planters in the former Louisiana territory.
 
Are there any examples of black men in the planter class in the United States? I haven't looked into it much specifically but I've never heard of this in passing, excluding some of the mixed race creole planters in the former Louisiana territory.

They existed, but were often registered as mulattos. Most common was probably the sons of plantation owners who were provided an education and at times left parcels of land upon their death. Thomas Jefferson was a bit of a cheapskate there and only left his mulatto sons one acre of his property to build their house on.

There were even a couple women among that number.
 

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How can you maximize African-American slave holders in the USA? The easiest way is to enslave someone else that looks different from either African-Americans or European-Americans. Chinese perhaps? Native Americans? Perhaps the Hispanic population in the SouthWest after the Mexican American war or Hawaiians. Those all fit the bill of having a lower technology, a different language, and a different appearance. Enslaving Chinese or Hawaiians would require slave ships but the others could be taken without even crossing an ocean.
The obsession with race or color is a new thing that started in the US and has perniciously infected much of the world. I doubt anyone in the world reacts better to tropical heat and sunlight than sub-Saharan Africans. Who would pay for Chinese slaves that will die of heat and sunburn instead of black slaves that are tried and true? Maximize black slaveholders by having French Louisiana thrive and remain a diverse society, quadroon balls and all. Free and legitimate descendants of slave owners in the area were in OTL, and will continue to be, mixed race enough to be considered black. Don't allow Louisiana in the US and the mixing continues.
 
The obsession with race or color is a new thing that started in the US and has perniciously infected much of the world.
Yes because without those damn United States the world would be free of all racism. Just like we invented chattel slavery. And probably antisemitism too!
 

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Yes because without those damn United States the world would be free of all racism. Just like we invented chattel slavery. And probably antisemitism too!
I am American bro, try again with your sarcasm. I never said we invented anything except the obsession with race. Black Americans, some of them even former slaves, moved to Liberia and immediately began enslaving and discriminating against people who looked exactly like them, but happened to be African instead of black American. Only our born in the USA obsession with race would make someone think Chinese or native slaves would work better, rather than just knowing free blacks will be fine with using black slaves as long as it's profitable.
 
I am American bro, try again with your sarcasm. I never said we invented anything except the obsession with race. Black Americans, some of them even former slaves, moved to Liberia and immediately began enslaving and discriminating against people who looked exactly like them, but happened to be African instead of black American. Only our born in the USA obsession with race would make someone think Chinese or native slaves would work better, rather than just knowing free blacks will be fine with using black slaves as long as it's profitable.
I didn't presume you weren't; in fact it's probably more common a belief among Americans than elsewhere. But it's wrong. American racism is more open and easy to distinguish in our history, but it is a real and pernicious part of basically all of modern history. It's not as if Latin America was a perfect spinning image of equality either. While there can be serious debates about the state of race relations within the colonies, ultimately, the people at the top of the social pyramid were white Spainards and Portugese in the Iberian peninsula.

I say this as a Chinese American who is utterly disgusted with the state of the way American racial discourse gets handled on this forum. More ink is spent on the fiction that hypen Americanism is racism (it's not), than the actual serious discussion. Meanwhile, there was a thread a while back talking glibly about German colonization of Namibia without mention of the obvious historical context in which that colonization was happening. No one would make that kind of mistake when taking about colonization of the West Coast for example.
 
I can imagine a US where, for whatever reason, the concepts of 'black' and 'white' are codified into law earlier and more clearly. You can have this happen in the constitution, or in an early Dred Scott style case establishing the principle of the "perpetual and impassable barrier [...] erected between the white race and the one which they had reduced to slavery," which also takes it upon itself to establish the definitions of what exactly the 'white race' and its counterpart entailed, in more OTL 20th century blood quantum type terms (or the OTL Spanish casta system of that time).

There's always going to be wiggle room though, right? In colonial Spain there was a practice called gracias al sacar, where someone could receive (usually buy) a formal dispensation declaring them to be white. If a similar concept arose in the US, it would probably be a high bar to reach, something that might require an act of Congress or a state legislature, maybe akin to the process of obtaining a corporate charter in that period OTL. However, and this probably would come through a Supreme Court ruling, it must axiomatically be true that only a member of the "dominant race" (as Roger Taney would have it) can own a slave - 'white' people can't be slaves, 'black' people can't own slaves. So if you own a slave, you must de jure be white. It's a back door gracias al sacar. Once established, this creates a perverse incentive for free blacks to own at least one slave. I imagine in a lot of cases the 'ownership' would be basically for show, similar to the above-referenced practice of freedmen buying their family members to free them - except in this case they wouldn't necessarily be freeing them. It creates a pretty gross scenario of men literally enslaving their wives as a necessary part of receiving their own full legal rights, as well as a giving the free black elite a reason to oppose general emancipation, as they might worry about losing their 'white' status. An all-around bad scene.
 

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I didn't presume you weren't; in fact it's probably more common a belief among Americans than elsewhere. But it's wrong. American racism is more open and easy to distinguish in our history, but it is a real and pernicious part of basically all of modern history. It's not as if Latin America was a perfect spinning image of equality either. While there can be serious debates about the state of race relations within the colonies, ultimately, the people at the top of the social pyramid were white Spainards and Portugese in the Iberian peninsula.

I say this as a Chinese American who is utterly disgusted with the state of the way American racial discourse gets handled on this forum. More ink is spent on the fiction that hypen Americanism is racism (it's not), than the actual serious discussion. Meanwhile, there was a thread a while back talking glibly about German colonization of Namibia without mention of the obvious historical context in which that colonization was happening. No one would make that kind of mistake when taking about colonization of the West Coast for example.
I don't know if we're talking about the same thing. Certainly people way lower on the Latin American totem pole than Spaniards did own slaves. And nobody seems to think they aren't able to. So why do people assume free blacks would be so hesitant to own black slaves? If not because of the US obsession with race.
 
The obsession with race or color is a new thing that started in the US and has perniciously infected much of the world. I doubt anyone in the world reacts better to tropical heat and sunlight than sub-Saharan Africans. Who would pay for Chinese slaves that will die of heat and sunburn instead of black slaves that are tried and true? Maximize black slaveholders by having French Louisiana thrive and remain a diverse society, quadroon balls and all. Free and legitimate descendants of slave owners in the area were in OTL, and will continue to be, mixed race enough to be considered black. Don't allow Louisiana in the US and the mixing continues.
I think the Confederates also started to take some measures against the Mulatto slave owners at least during the civil war IIRC. Not having Louisiana part of the US makes it more likely to have it have its own system retained and not be infected as much by US based racial classifications. I can’t see the whole of the Louisiana territory being held by France continuously in the long term due to how big and unsettled it was if it’s anything like OTL though, especially with the US existing as it would inevitably want to expand east and American settlers would attempt to settle in the Great Plains regardless of legality. But I could see the core of modern Louisiana perhaps being held onto, and remaining distinctly Francophone, expanding its population through attracting immigration and assimilating the immigrants to their society rather than the Anglo American one. Even then though, there’s probably going to need to be something incentivizing France to hold onto it, as New Orleans controlling the entrance to the Mississippi means the US is still highly likely to go after that territory.

The best way to achieve this I think would be to have a Stronger France in North America for awhile before the American Revolution and a weaker or non existent USA. My idea is that the Seven Years War in North America goes differently and as a result France does not lose Louisiana to Spain although it still loses Canada to the British. This isn’t that hard really-the transfer of authority from France to Spain took a long time and when the Spanish tried to completely take control of New Orleans in 1767 the French residents outright revolted. France losing Louisiana was a result of a complex series of land exchanges near the end of the war, which could easily be butterflied. France had a choice between regaining its valuable Carribean sugar colonies or New France and gave up New France because it was seen as a backwater which didn’t produce much value.

Have the war in the Caribbean go better for France and Spain, and France doesn’t face this choice. Britian still conquers Canada (although it’s more bloody and takes longer in this scenario) but the French Caribbean remains in French hands, and isn’t a bargaining chip to make France give up its colonies in the rest of North America, and with the more difficult conquest of Canada and failures in the Caribbean Britain is in a worse position than OTL though it’s still victorious. French Louisiana is returned to France instead of ceded to Spain. So France retains the parts of New France they ceded to Spain OTL, and so Louisiana gains a lot more importance as France’s sole foothold on mainland North America and primary settler colony. The Acadian French who were ethnically cleansed by the British OTL probably still are (if the conquest of Canada is harder and more bloody it’s probably worse actually), and like OTL the colonial government of Louisiana recruits many of them as settlers, probably many more than OTL since it’s still the French running Louisiana and the Acadians are thus more receptive to it and more likely to be sought out to further bolster the state’s Francophone population. The French also continue to send colonists to the New World, and Louisiana is the primary destination apart from the Caribbean.

As a result of this, Louisiana’s Francophone population will be much larger than in OTL and France will maintain greater control over the Mississippi Basin then Spanish Louisiana did. This will strengthen its differences to the British North American colonies, and as a result you likely see the Mulatto slave owners of OTL be more common and greater in number, due to the larger population if nothing else. Louisiana will be a long time French territory that’s been settled for generations by Frenchmen, and it will because of this have a much more distinctly Francophone identity-it won’t be a marginal territory only just recently regained by Napoleon like when OTL Louisiana purchase happened, but France’s sole foothold in continental North America which it’s held for generations and which has a mostly French population in the parts that have been settled. Even the Native Americans that are the ones truly in control of much of the territory claimed by New France would in this scenario most likely be much more influenced by France than OTL, receiving missionaries from French Catholics, trading with the French, if Louisiana is anything like French Quebec likely having a large Métis population, and when seeking to adopt things from the European colonizers so as to stave off conquest as happened often OTL likely looking to France rather than England.

Whats my point in discussing all this? Well, this scenario would have established a Louisiana that is more populated than OTL earlier and is a lot more Francophone, and thus the different racial attitudes of the French colonists and colonial government in America will be much more influential in the long term. Make no mistake-French Colonial rule is still explorative, brutal, and inherently colonial. But it has significant differences to American and British Slavery because it’s system of Slavery would be defined by the Code Noir rather than the British Legal System. Most of the differences aren’t relevant to the discussion, but the Code Noir had less restrictions on Free People of Color and gave slaves some rights they didn’t have under the Anglo-American legal system, which resulted in Louisiana even OTL having a much higher population of Free Slaves compared to other Slave states (13.2% in Louisiana compared to 0.8% in Mississippi, many of them being the children of slaves and their owners or descendants of them) and those Free Slaves being much more literate, educated, and economically well off then their counterparts in the rest of the US-including many of them owning Businesses and their own Slaves. Im not going to pretend it was or would be some utopia where these rights were universally respected or enforced, but their presence is still more conductive to a larger free slave population and more black slave owners. A stronger, more Francophone and more populated Louisiana which continues to be a French Possession for at least a lot longer would have a much stronger influence of the Code Noir, and thus a lot more Free Black People who own slaves of their own, especially a lot more of mixed race less restrictions on them (Mulatto and Métis). Interestingly, I think this could also result in more Native Slave Owners as well, as the French comparatively cared a lot more about cultural assimilation and trade then the English (although they were still, y’know, settler colonialists) and did less outright displacing the natives (though they still did plenty of that), so I could see the ATL Métis population also owning many slaves, and Native groups who have close trade ties and relations to the French also owning at least some slaves, which occured even in OTL with for example the 5 Civilized Tribes but would be more prominent due to both the weaker ability of Louisiana to colonize up the Mississippi and their closer trade and cultural relations to the Natives.
Yes because without those damn United States the world would be free of all racism. Just like we invented chattel slavery. And probably antisemitism too!
You are missing the point. The US did not invent racism, the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to inherited attributes and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another, or prejudice and discrimination against people based on their ancestry or culture. But we did play a large role in inventing the most prominent modern racial classification system of “black, white, asian, ect” in the specific way we think of it now.

A distinction between those of African descent and those of European descent did exist in other colonies of course, but in Latin America it was less rigid and there were a lot more White or Mestizo people with at least some African ancestry despite the Spanish caste system. The US invented the One Drop Rule and the idea that even one drop of black ancestry means you aren’t white, and Whiteness is a “absence of Race” (although nobody would say that in those exact words, that’s pretty much how it’s thought of if you stop to think about it). Think about the way fascists talk about “white genocide” as non-white immigrants having kids with white people “wiping out white people”, despite the fact that, logically, someone of mixed white and something else descent would be as much white as the other thing, or the one drop rule, or how Obama is mixed race, but nobody would ever call him White even though it’s entirely normal to call him Black, even though he is as much of European descent as African.

There was an idea of “Whiteness” that developed during colonialism that the US did not invent (it’s not like modern racism was born solely in the US and then spread to Europe). But it was largely born out of the Triangle Trade, which the British North American colonies that became the United States played a huge role in, and we had a large role in defining it in the way we currently see it. Especially because of how dominant America is culturally and how influential it’s been in the past, our conception of race has spread to a large degree through our media and influence, although again we do not bear sole responsibility for that. I’d disagree with the original poster that obsession with race and skin color is a new thing that started in the US and spread to the rest of the world, because it’s modern form is really a result of colonialism and all of the colonial empires bear responsibility for it and contributed, but the US did play a huge role in defining the current way we define “races” and obsession over skin color specifically as being what defines your race (rather than say religion, or culture, although both play a role and have played a historical role in the US view of whiteness), although we were not soley responsible for inventing it.
 
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I never said we invented anything except the obsession with race.

We actually inherited it from England.

Easiest path is a larger French colonial population, so the Louisiana territory has more mixed race people who inherit plantations from white ancestors.
 
I see a few major hurdles to this: freedmen understand the brutality and shame of slave ownership and very few would wish it on anyone else, and the White planter class may be concerned that such an AHC would undermine their vision of a South run by and for White Anglo-Saxon men.
The first hurdle isn't actually a problem: there are plenty of examples in history of the oppressed becoming the oppressors, and plenty of examples of former slaves becoming slave-owners themselves.

The real problem is that, by the 18th century, the main justification for slavery was racial, i.e., blacks are so inherently inferior to whites that they need to be completely controlled by them, because if given power and freedom they'll only misuse it, probably by going on random killing and raping sprees due to their inferior and violent nature. Obviously if you believe something like that, you won't look kindly on black men being given any kind of authority, even over other black men.

So, to get a non-negligible group of black slaveowners, you'd need to find some other justification for slavery. Before the racist justification became common, the main justification was that slavery was necessary to bring infidels into close enough contact with Christians to convert them. Maybe that could remain the common view? Then it would be possible for a black slave to convert to Christianity, be freed, get rich (this might be a multi-generational process), and then buy some slaves himself.
 
We actually inherited it from England.
More like, from the English North American colonies. England itself had a negligible non-white population until the 1960s, meaning that most people didn't give too much thought to issues of race. Obviously some people, usually intellectuals, did, but on the whole racial obsession wasn't a salient feature of English culture in the same way as it was in the Deep South, for example.
 
You are missing the point. The US did not invent racism, the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to inherited attributes and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another, or prejudice and discrimination against people based on their ancestry or culture. But we did play a large role in inventing the most prominent modern racial classification system of “black, white, asian, ect” in the specific way we think of it now.
Yeah, until recently most European racism was directed against other Europeans, who were, of course, white. The idea that white people in general form a single race with a single set of defining characteristics didn't really become salient until recently, as a result of the dominance of US ideas and culture.
or how Obama is mixed race, but nobody would ever call him White even though it’s entirely normal to call him Black, even though he is as much of White descent as Black.
To be fair, Obama always presented himself as black, and his black ancestry is more obvious just from looking at him, so I think even without any historical influence from the one-drop rule etc. he'd probably still be considered black.
 
To be fair, Obama always presented himself as black, and his black ancestry is more obvious just from looking at him, so I think even without any historical influence from the one-drop rule etc. he'd probably still be considered black.
Oh no, I’m not saying that isn’t legitimate. My point wasn’t that Obama without the one drop rule wouldn’t be considered black or that he isn’t black, my point was that nobody would ever consider him white, even though he is also white.
 
The obsession with race or color is a new thing that started in the US and has perniciously infected much of the world. I doubt anyone in the world reacts better to tropical heat and sunlight than sub-Saharan Africans. Who would pay for Chinese slaves that will die of heat and sunburn instead of black slaves that are tried and true? Maximize black slaveholders by having French Louisiana thrive and remain a diverse society, quadroon balls and all. Free and legitimate descendants of slave owners in the area were in OTL, and will continue to be, mixed race enough to be considered black. Don't allow Louisiana in the US and the mixing continues.
After slavery was banned there were areas in the former Confederacy that imported Chinese and had them pick cotton in Mississippi. They are the famous Chinese of Mississippi and they are real and their ancestors literally picked the cotton just fine. Don't underestimate the strength of Chinese peasants.
I thought Chinese would be appealing as slaves not because of any suitability to the labor but because they had a different language, culture, religion and appearance. It's easier psychologically to enslave "them" because they're not "us." Also, the situation in China was so bad at that time that I sincerely believe they could easily have gotten large numbers of people onto ships with promise of jobs for doing tasks like building the railways . Once they were in America, they could easily have been formally enslaved.
 
***The real problem is that, by the 18th century, the main justification for slavery was racial, i.e., blacks are so inherently inferior to whites that they need to be completely controlled by them, because if given power and freedom they'll only misuse it, probably by going on random killing and raping sprees due to their inferior and violent nature.***

Not really as much to do about race, more than 'if they were as good as us they would have become slaves in the first place.' |f the go to place for slaves was, lets say northern Africa or south America , it would be the same thing?
 
-America votes the Guano act in the early 1840s
-Recognise claims over the guano rich Namibian coast from roughly Tigre Island, Angola to the Penguin Island
-Make treaties with the westernmost Ovambo kingdoms and the quickly expending Jonker Afrikaner Orlam kingdom,
-This integrates Namaland, Damaraland and Ovamboland into the Atlantic economy quicker than IRL
-By this point it’s the second half of the 1840s and the tail, but very profitable, end of legal southern Atlantic slave trade to Brazil (over 50,000 slaves a year were brought to Rio alone at this time)
-Western Ovambo kingdoms and Orlam/Nama quickly take advantage of it, raiding herero southern Angolan, Lozi, tswana population
-A new class of a several hundreds/low thousands (looking at the size of the luanda slave trading community) local (so black duh) slave traders and many more owners appear in the few American island towns along the Angolan and Namibian coast, the slaves can probably be used to bolster the local fishing industry
-As a non-integrated territory it could probably avoid some of the american anti-slave trade laws, not that said laws would ever really apply so far away from washington, maybe the local Nama and Khoisan population could be argued to be exempt from american laws concerning "Blacks" and "Mullato"
-this probably stays prosperous for a decade 1845-1855, after the slowing down of the transatlantic slave trade would make it decline

There you have it, probably would be hard with any later POD

Alternatively this can be done with the Juan de nova island and neighbouring islands (mozambique channel islands), it would enrich itself less from the peak of slave trade but would probably last 5-10 years (to the civil war) more since east african slave trade lasted longer
 
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