Your challenge, should you accept it, is to create before 1900 an Islamic based movement to create what could be described as a democracy, and have it last to at least 1900. Bonus points and a cookie goes to whomever can keep it from being destroyed beyond 1900.
AHC: Democratic Islamic Movement
- Thread starter Kayin Dreemurr
- Start date
Have you read this TL before ? : https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=306273
The Tanzimat reforms in the 19th century can be described as both Islamist and democratic. The period saw the Majallah reforms in the Ottoman Empire, where Sharia was codified and the powers of the Caliph as leader of Islam cemented and made key points of state ideology. The period also saw the first Ottoman constitutions and parliaments.
Admittedly the OE wasn't exactly a stable democracy, but with a few minor PODs it could have worked.
Admittedly the OE wasn't exactly a stable democracy, but with a few minor PODs it could have worked.
Perhaps we can have some Islamic modernist such as Al-Afghani, Mohammad Abduh, or Syed Ahmed Khan decide that since two of the most prominent colonizers, Britain and France were fairly democratic, adapting democratic principles to Islam would be one of the best ways for the Islamic world to modernize. Taking advantage of the concepts of Ijama and Shura would help ensure it gained acceptance. As for ensuring this movement survived it shouldn't be too difficult since in OTL there were already movements for secular democracy in much of the Islamic world. A similar movement based around Islam will likely have even more support and more legitimacy.
It's probably much better if you could find a largely homogenous Islamic state to begin democratic reforms with. It would be difficult giving, say, the Ottoman Empire a democratic founding because the realm was so polyglot that I doubt the ulema would ever agree to the reforms ("Infidels shouldn't have a say in Islamic states" etc.), and in any case democracy was probably going to unleash centrifugal forces that would rip the Ottoman Empire apart.
I think if democracy is going to take root in Islamic states you might be better off starting with the more homogenous and progressive nations in North Africa (Tunis, Morocco, even Algiers I suppose). Persia could be a less-plausible possibility.
In a broader sense of 'Islamic world', perhaps we can also consider the British protectorates like Hyderabad or the Malay states. If they undergo democratic reforms (maybe the British support them, for whatever reason) these ideas could spread back into the core Middle East.
I think if democracy is going to take root in Islamic states you might be better off starting with the more homogenous and progressive nations in North Africa (Tunis, Morocco, even Algiers I suppose). Persia could be a less-plausible possibility.
In a broader sense of 'Islamic world', perhaps we can also consider the British protectorates like Hyderabad or the Malay states. If they undergo democratic reforms (maybe the British support them, for whatever reason) these ideas could spread back into the core Middle East.
My mistake, I thought they had sort of ignored the West's democratic traditions in order to emphasize Western science and technology and to a lesser extent societal values. Still I think that had Islamic Modernists been more successful in spreading their message then we could see a thriving Democratic Islamic movement.
Actually, of those states listed, Morocco seems like the best choice and place to start in my opinion, if for no other reason than that it was one of the first nations to be friendly with the United States.
Hmmm...
You're not exactly referring to Tanzimat, which was a forced-draft authoritarian modernization, a percursor to Kemalism, instead of The Young Ottomans. But indeed Tanzimat laid the basis of marriage between Islamic and modern values and thus paved the way for the birth of Young Ottomans.
Better yet is to fast forward Auspicious Incident by decades. Had Selim III had Mahmut's guts, Tanzimat will have begun at the same Napoleon takes over France, or even during French Revolution.
GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
Perhaps allow me preface this by saying I am a good-natured agnostic and by no means an expert, but from what I understand . . .
Islam is largely democratic. There is a large emphasis within the religion on equality and on fair treatment of persons in less fortunate circumstances.
As one example, Islam teaches teaches lending money at interest is wrong but venture partnerships are okay; i.e. no predatorial lending, and thus may hit it about right. I read this in a book on world religions. This may be the Qur'an, this may be the Hadith, or this may be among the sayings of the Prophet. Again, I am merely a humble traveler and am by no means an expert.
Now, is there some hierarchy? Of course there is. We humans can be quite hierarchical, even Buddhism probably has hierarchical aspects if you look for it, and modern democracies with their emphasis on equality before the law. If you really look at it, poor people are treated qualitatively different. And I actually favor bringing up the law so that a poor person accused of a crime is treated just as respectfully as a rich person.
Islam is largely democratic. There is a large emphasis within the religion on equality and on fair treatment of persons in less fortunate circumstances.
As one example, Islam teaches teaches lending money at interest is wrong but venture partnerships are okay; i.e. no predatorial lending, and thus may hit it about right. I read this in a book on world religions. This may be the Qur'an, this may be the Hadith, or this may be among the sayings of the Prophet. Again, I am merely a humble traveler and am by no means an expert.
Now, is there some hierarchy? Of course there is. We humans can be quite hierarchical, even Buddhism probably has hierarchical aspects if you look for it, and modern democracies with their emphasis on equality before the law. If you really look at it, poor people are treated qualitatively different. And I actually favor bringing up the law so that a poor person accused of a crime is treated just as respectfully as a rich person.
GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
If we want to go way back, easy, just have the Islamic flourishing of the 10th and 11th centuries continue. And things work out slightly different so that the Mongols are not the huge problem they were.
Emphasis was indeed put on science and tech, but they valued notion such as shura as Islamic foundations for popular participation in government. Calling them "democratic" may be too much though.