A Fitzroy-Regency Question

Deleted member 5909

Finally, just a general query: how easy or difficult is it to legitimise bastards in the sixteenth century?

Complicated. English Common law lacked the mechanisms for civil legitimisation via letters patent, as in France, Castile and other realms with legal systems heavily influenced by Roman Law. The only precedent I know of is John of Gaunt, whose children by his mistress (whom he subsequently married) were legitimised by a papal bull, which was later clarified by Parliament.

As papal decree wouldn't be possible in this case, an act of parliament could certainly do so. However, in truth, it wouldn't have been necessary. The Second and Third Succession acts passed during Henry VIII's reign already gave him the power to will the Crown and modify the line of succession by letters patent or testament, provided it did not infringe on the rights of his legitimately born heirs of the body. It was already reported by Chapuys in 1536 that FitzRoy would likely have been named heir presumptive under the terms of the Second Act, had he not been on his death bed at the time with terminal consumption. So, it's not too much of a stretch to envision him being included in the line of succession after Edward in this scenario's version of the Third Act of Succession, given that this law also reinstated Elizabeth and Mary, but reiterated their status as bastards.

Two potential butterflies of Richmond surviving and becoming England's greatest peer (and his father's favourite councillor):

- The Howards are "safe" enough in their power/direct access to the King to not feel the need for a Howard Queen
- The promotion of the Seymours involves some marriage into the Howard clan, thus off-setting the dispute between the two families (and allowing for greater and earlier dispute between the future King's two Seymour uncles)

I think it's very likely Henry VIII wouldn't marry Anne of Cleves and Catherine Howard - in which case his track record is better and his international reputation protected enough to allow for more agreeable matches with Marie of Guise or Christina of Denmark, or even a native love match in place of Anne of Cleves (with FitzRoy to shore up the succession with precedence over Mary, there's less to fear from the Emperor perhaps?).

Agreed: The effects of a surviving FitzRoy are going to create a great deal of butterflies, to the point that even the marriage to Anne of Cleves may or may not be butterflied away, and we could very well see a different girl put into play by the Norfolk and FitzRoy to replace OTL's Catherine Howard.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far: If FitzRoy allies with the Howards (very likely, given he was wed to Norfolk's daughter and very close with his brother-in-law, Surrey), he's going to be part of the Anti-Cromwell faction at court the sprang up in the events following Anne Boleyn's downfall. With the opposition of FitzRoy, a man who conceivably will be very close to his father, Cromwell may fall sooner rather than later, butterflying away Anne of Cleves. And, even if events go more or less as in OTL, we could very well see a different girl put into play by the Norfolk and FitzRoy to replace OTL's Catherine Howard.

Which brings me to my next point: The assumption thus far in this thread seems to be that a surviving FitzRoy would have Reformist sympathies, in line with his royal half-brother and the Seymours. I don't see this as a given by any means.

FitzRoy grew up before the Supremacy and was raised in the Old Religion (unlike Elizabeth and Edward, whose religious views were connected in no small part to the climate of their respective childhoods); there is even some evidence from the letters of Lady Bryan that, after he came to court in 1525, FitzRoy was brought up for a time with Mary in the royal nursery, which means that they may or may not have shared tutors; and even so, we do know that his education was supervised by Wolsey and his father.

It's also worth mentioning that he had very large landholdings in the North Country--so much so that he held nominal presidency of the Council of the North, with the contemporary assumption being that he would govern there when he came of age (I assume similar to the role Richard III had played in Edward IV's reign)*. This may possibly give him ties to a lot of other very anti-reformist families in this scenario.

If FitzRoy is aligned with the Howards and a player in Cromwell's downfall, it is likely that he'll then continue to align with Norfolk, Gardiner and other members of the 'conservative' faction which arose in the aftermath (made up largely of members of the old nobility and other men opposed to further religious reform). This probably creates enough butterflies to keep the conservative party in power and prevent the post-1546 situation, which led to Seymour's rise with other reformers, such as Sir Anthony Denny and John Dudley.

Taking all this into account, the situation in the winter of 1547, when Henry VIII dies (assuming he expires more or less at the same time in this scenario), will be a very different one indeed than from OTL's, especially if the downfall of the Howards is butterflied away entirely. Whether or not FitzRoy will be named Lord Protector is debatable. I see a regency council being more likely as in Henry VIII's OTL will, since this seems to be the trend in English royal minorities. However, the Council in such a scenario would include not only FitzRoy, but others such Gardiner (likely excluded in OTL by the mechanisms of Seymour and others), Wriothesly and Norfolk. The Seymour brothers probably would be included as well, though they likely won't have the power they had in OTL's 1547 for a number of reasons.

Given his status as next-in-line to the Crown, his record as a tried military commander (against the Scots in the Rough Wooing, see the note below) and his relatively large power base, FitzRoy would be in a good position to pull off a similar coup to OTL's Seymour and assume power as Lord Protector.

This said, even if FitzRoy and the 'conservative' faction dominate the regency of Edward VI, I don't see reconciliation with Rome as likely, since it contravenes FitzRoy's interests as: (a) it would displace him in the succession and (b) he and many other members of the old nobility have gained a great deal of wealth and land from the Dissolution of the Monasteries (in OTL even Gardiner was wary of reconciliation in Mary's reign because of its potential restoration of monastic land). More likely, we'll see a continuation of the Henrician Church as it stood in Henry VIII's final years in OTL (such as retaining the Six Articles and the Act for the Advancement of True Religion).

*On a side note, this also means that Seymour probably won't be a leading military commander in the Rough Wooing, since FitzRoy would be a more natural choice for the role (I believe he served in the office of Lord Warden of the Marches), which may make Seymour less powerful ITTL, as a great deal of the credibility that allowed him to pull off the coup of 1547 came from his successful campaigns against the Scots.
 
With regard Fitzroy and religion you make very good points - Elizabeth for example had a pretty reformist education but was throughout her life (to the fury of her more Protestant councillors) in the middle of her more extreme siblings.
Fitzroy is going to be more likely closer to the Henrician church than the more extreme reformist tendencies of others - however the big question with that is how it impacts his relations with Edward - if Edward on his accession is given new tutors and new chaplains then it might be possible to pull him closer to his half brother in religious thought which will of course have a significant impact.

However if no change is made you have a reformist protestant King at odds with his Henrician catholic half brother which is going to cause trouble.

If Fitzroy is as overbearing as the Seymour's were with the King then Fitzroy might find his brother as unforgiving and resentful of him as he was of his uncle's.
 
With regard Fitzroy and religion you make very good points - Elizabeth for example had a pretty reformist education but was throughout her life (to the fury of her more Protestant councillors) in the middle of her more extreme siblings.
Fitzroy is going to be more likely closer to the Henrician church than the more extreme reformist tendencies of others - however the big question with that is how it impacts his relations with Edward - if Edward on his accession is given new tutors and new chaplains then it might be possible to pull him closer to his half brother in religious thought which will of course have a significant impact.

However if no change is made you have a reformist protestant King at odds with his Henrician catholic half brother which is going to cause trouble.

If Fitzroy is as overbearing as the Seymour's were with the King then Fitzroy might find his brother as unforgiving and resentful of him as he was of his uncle's.

If Fitzroy opts for Elizabeth's via media type of religion (if only because it's in his best interests to stay on his dad's good side) he could moderate Edward's intolerance of Mary's Catholicism. I personally can't see him as being too fanatical one way or the other. He benefited too much from the Dissolution to oppose the Henrican church, even if he was raised in the old faith, and married to a Howard (Catholic). His religion might play a second fiddle to his ambition.
 
Yep I think that is true and another point that every one forgets is the Howards were also enormous beneficiaries of monastic land and remained less tractable with regard religion than their long-term reputation as devout hold out catholics would have us believe.
The big issue for me in this is Edward himself - irrespective of any change Crammer is still going to hail him as the new Josiah at this TL coronation just as he did in OTL - Edward's council was pro-reformist because he was and in that he was rabidly insistant and got more so as he grew older.

I still think on Edward's death there is a succession crisis whatever Henry VIII did regarding Fitzroy and naming him in his will - Mary will not let that go in her mind and to many of her supporters she is Henry's legitimate daughter.
 
The main difference is between this and OTL is that now you have three bastards, one of whom happens to be male, while the other two bastards are both girls - one is the wrong religion for the Reformed faith, the other a problem with the Catholics.

Mary might be Henry's legitimate daughter, but Matilda was also her father's legitimate surviving heir after William Adelin died. And look how that turned out. Matilda was driven away from London by an angry mob, she was forced to flee Oxford Castle under the cover of night in disguise etc.
 

Deleted member 5909

The main difference is between this and OTL is that now you have three bastards, one of whom happens to be male, while the other two bastards are both girls - one is the wrong religion for the Reformed faith, the other a problem with the Catholics.

Mary might be Henry's legitimate daughter, but Matilda was also her father's legitimate surviving heir after William Adelin died. And look how that turned out. Matilda was driven away from London by an angry mob, she was forced to flee Oxford Castle under the cover of night in disguise etc.

This is, of course, assuming that Edward VI's OTL death is not butterflied away in this scenario. But, for argument's sake, we'll assume that things go similar to OTL...

I don't see a succession crisis as necessarily given. FitzRoy has many things in his favour that Jane Grey did not in OTL: his male sex, the fact that he is the son of Henry VIII (a man greatly popular with his people despite the later historical reputation), his legal place via the late king's will (enshrined in an act of Parliament) and, importantly, that he will likely be the greatest peer in the realm (think Richard III as Duke of Gloucester in terms of landholding).

Also, another important question to take into account is what type of relationship would FitzRoy have with his half-sister, Mary?
 
This is, of course, assuming that Edward VI's OTL death is not butterflied away in this scenario. But, for argument's sake, we'll assume that things go similar to OTL...

I don't see a succession crisis as necessarily given. FitzRoy has many things in his favour that Jane Grey did not in OTL: his male sex, the fact that he is the son of Henry VIII (a man greatly popular with his people despite the later historical reputation), his legal place via the late king's will (enshrined in an act of Parliament) and, importantly, that he will likely be the greatest peer in the realm (think Richard III as Duke of Gloucester in terms of landholding).

Also, another important question to take into account is what type of relationship would Fitzroy have with his half-sister, Mary?

Given a living Fitzroy, would Mary still be unmarried at the death of Edward? ISTM that it would be much to Fitzroy's interest to see her married off and out of the country. Which would presumably be more of a starter if she were not heir presumptive.
 
[QUOTE
other important question to take into account is what type of relationship would FitzRoy have with his half-sister, Mary?[/QUOTE]

I think the ealier post mentioning that they were raised together might answer some of these questions. Secondly, it would depend on Fitzroy's religious stance. Mary had a notoriously difficult rrlationship with Edward and Elizabeth because of religion. Fitzroy might be the one who sort pours oil on troubled waters between his siblings.
 
While I can see Fritzroy in charge of the regency council for Edward VI, I just can't see Henry VIII inserting him into the succession between Edward and the girls. For one, that might give Seymour and company too much temptation to crown Fritzroy as King in Edward's stead (ie Richard III). Henry VIII would've no doubt foresaw such a possibility, and so would've most likely place Fritzroy after Mary and Elizabeth in order to reduce the risk of succession shenanigans after his death. Remember England is just a couple generations removed from the Wars of the Roses, and nobody with a brain would want to risk another succession beef over the throne by inserting a bastard son ahead of a couple of arguably legitimate daughters.
 
While I can see Fritzroy in charge of the regency council for Edward VI, I just can't see Henry VIII inserting him into the succession between Edward and the girls. For one, that might give Seymour and company too much temptation to crown Fritzroy as King in Edward's stead (ie Richard III). Henry VIII would've no doubt foresaw such a possibility, and so would've most likely place Fritzroy after Mary and Elizabeth in order to reduce the risk of succession shenanigans after his death. Remember England is just a couple generations removed from the Wars of the Roses, and nobody with a brain would want to risk another succession beef over the throne by inserting a bastard son ahead of a couple of arguably legitimate daughters.

Why would Seymour et al crown Fitzroy when they stood to gain more from a regency for Edward VI? Color me stupid but I'm confused.
 
colour me the same. Surely Fitzroy is either legitimate (granted, by statute, but legitimate none the less), in which case, as a male he comes after Edward, or he is still a bastard, in which case he comes nowhere. The only question in my mind is : from Fitzroy's PoV, if he is legitimate, does not he, as the oldest son, have precedence over Edward, his junior.His father's will says 'no', but the will is a separate matter to the legitimisation. Would Fitzroy have the numbers to topple Edward?
 
colour me the same. Surely Fitzroy is either legitimate (granted, by statute, but legitimate none the less), in which case, as a male he comes after Edward, or he is still a bastard, in which case he comes nowhere. The only question in my mind is : from Fitzroy's PoV, if he is legitimate, does not he, as the oldest son, have precedence over Edward, his junior.His father's will says 'no', but the will is a separate matter to the legitimisation. Would Fitzroy have the numbers to topple Edward?

An interesting question. IMHO he'd have a problem getting the Ultras on his side - both the ultraconservatives and ultraliberals.

The Prior of Crato had a similar situation in Portugal where one candidate for the throne was a woman (Caterina of Braganca), one a child (Farnese) and a third a foreigner (Philip II). Here the woman is Mary and the child is Edward, while he himself is a bastard. He doesn't have the funds or the connexions that either Mary or Philip II would have, and he doesn't have the legitimacy that Edward or Farnese did as the nearest male heir.
 
An interesting question. IMHO he'd have a problem getting the Ultras on his side - both the ultraconservatives and ultraliberals.

The Prior of Crato had a similar situation in Portugal where one candidate for the throne was a woman (Caterina of Braganca), one a child (Farnese) and a third a foreigner (Philip II). Here the woman is Mary and the child is Edward, while he himself is a bastard. He doesn't have the funds or the connexions that either Mary or Philip II would have, and he doesn't have the legitimacy that Edward or Farnese did as the nearest male heir.


Though he might get a second chance.

If he is alive (and possibly a father by now) Mary might well prefer him to Elizabeth as a successor. After all, in her eyes Elizabeth is just as much a bastard as Fitzroy, and Mary isn't even convinced that Henry VIII was Elizabeth's real father. Assuming that Fitzroy conforms in matters of religion, I'd rate the chances pretty high.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Henry would have had the Norfolk clan on his side (he married one) and as such, the Norfolk clan PLUS Henry would be there aligned alongside Catherine Howard. Its possible in this that Henry would have been a deciding weight to undermine the plot against her (for plot there surely was)

- - -

Unrelated to my point, Catherine Parr served as Regent for Henry when he was absent.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Oh and do note, Henry Fitzroy may well have children of his own by the time of Henry VIII's death. They were 14/15 when married, and even if it wasn't consumated til they were 17/18, there is sufficient time for heirs to be born.

The existence of a healthy male GRANDCHILD may be all Henry VIII needs to put Henry Fitzroy into the line of succession after Edward.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I'm sorry but the notion of Fitzroy being legitimised and being inserted into the line of succession just seems absurd. At no point did Henry show any sign of legitimising him, and given his shall we say, fluid, family politics, he could have had he wanted. Henry cared all about prestige and security-he wanted a healthy male heir whose legitimacy was unquestionable and in 1547 he had one.

The only precedent I can think of for legitimising a semi-royal family is the Beauforts, who served as military commanders (Thomas) and as church statesmen (Henry). The entire family was barred from succession by statute. There is thus precedent for legitimising bastard, but not for them succeeding. Furthermore, it should also be noted that the Beauforts were descended from John of Gaunt, who although a senior royal was not actually king. Legitimising the King's bastard would be an entirely different kettle of fish.

I think if Fitzroy survives he stands good stead of being made Regent. He's already a powerful aristocrat and with no hope of the throne he's the best person to guard it for Edward.
 
Which is why projects of making FitzRoy King of Ireland or Duke of Milan married to an Infanta of Portugal or daughter of Denmark weren't ever considered IOTL?

Considering Henry VIII kept his two bastard daughters in the succession and actively promoted FitzRoy as something of a "spare", it's not inconceivable that he'd be given some standing in the succession if he survived.
 
Well, there's bastards and there's bastards. (And then there's traffic cops).

Both Mary and Elizabeth were legitimate according to some people.But everybody agreed that Fitzroy was a bastard.
 
Well, there's bastards and there's bastards. (And then there's traffic cops).

Both Mary and Elizabeth were legitimate according to some people.But everybody agreed that Fitzroy was a bastard.

I'm not sure Henry was particularly sensitive to opinions besides his own. And whereas the girls had at least been considered legitimate at the time of birth, FitzRoy was male and capable of offering solid royal rule free of foreign entanglements.
 
I'm not sure Henry was particularly sensitive to opinions besides his own. And whereas the girls had at least been considered legitimate at the time of birth, FitzRoy was male and capable of offering solid royal rule free of foreign entanglements.

The Duke of Richmond will still have one huge strike against him, he's a bastard (in the dictionary term of the word). Also screwing a legitimate heir out of their rights is how succession wars (i.e. Hundred Years War/Wars of the Roses) get started. Even if he does manages to get the throne, "Henry IX" will at the very least have the Hapsburgs (Spain/Austria: pressing Mary's claim), and the French (Auld Alliance: pressing the Stuart's claim) be against him. The only way Richmond can possibly get the throne is if he's after Mary and Elizabeth. By putting Richmond after the girls, no major faction is alienated and the risk of potential succession shenanigans is reduced.
 
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