Interesting chapter. Huh,it seems that France without an evil Germany is spiraling downtards. I wonder,if in TL was this chance of France becoming fascist,considering they were the winners. What is the views in Italy and France about an alliance with Soviets? It would be interesting to see Poland being allied with Germany against Russia. I wonder when will the butterflies affect Romania?
8mm to the Left: If Hitler Died in 1923
- Thread starter KaiserKatze
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Pretty much, the Pre-Dread's are reaching their treaty age limits anyway and Britain won't object to a small fleet of limited capacity Battleship's to counter the Soviet Navy (which is why Germany was allowed to keep what it did get OTL). They can also build a few cruisers to show the flag (especially if they ever get a colony or two back) and replace the destroyers. I'd be shocked if they don't revive the UBoat arm as well (but on a much lower level just to regain skills). The Bismarck class and the follow on Plan Z achieve nothing but anger the British, which given Germany can't actually easily reach the high seas without British approval or at least neutrality is a very bad idea.
And the fact the Scharnhorsts wouldn't be rushed would mean they'd be properly armed instead of how they were underarmed for a battleship of their size (with how they had 11 inch guns and all that).
Hitler objected to bigger guns as well and even after that passed it was to late for a refit. But yeah four 14 inch Scharnhorst's and a pair of cut down (but improved due to not being based on WW1 designs) Bismarck class Battleships would probably be acceptable. Six ships wouldn't be a major issue for the RN to demolish if things did go sour (as happened OTL), Germany has a couple of prestige units for flag showing and the force is strong enough to keep the Baltic under control and keep the French away from the west coast in the event of a fight.
Broadly LV knows what started the trouble last time anyway and being an actual soldier rather than a greedy cripple with a chip on his shoulder he knows Germany doesn't need a high seas fleet but a coastal defence one. Sure they can be built to steam 10,000 miles and show off to the South Americans but the priority is strong units focused more on defence than offense and able to keep the French fleet out of bombardment range.
Then just keep the pocket Battleship's for any long range duties as (being oversized cruisers) that's kind of the job they're best for anyway.
The French are pretty split on the issue of Russia. IRL a lot in the government and military were really opposed to an alliance with the Bolsheviks, assuming that they were inherently untrustworthy--and to be fair, looking at what happened post-WW2, it wasn't an unfair assumption. Despite this, pragmatism eventually won out, especially after Poland seemed to be aligning more with the Nazis and signing a non-aggression pact.
The current Prime Minister, Marin, as well as Italy both oppose relying on the Soviets. The only real difference between Marin and the former government is that he is less-than-convinced of the combat value of the likes of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, and so is a bit more interested in keeping the Brits and Italians on their side. He is also big on rearmament.
That's a good summary of the situation. Enough ships to defend against potential incursions on the North-West Coast and to claim that they have a navy, but not enough to make a very significant different.
Plus, certain voices have begun advocating for an entirely different push in naval combat, that being the idea of fighting ships with a fleet far more in Germany's wheelhouse: Planes
Planes are boring, we need more cavalry, they can take down navies too
Mental image of Napoleon crossing the English Channel on horseback... on a raft
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Does Germany even need six? Three or four is more than enough for a fleet-in-being, and the rest of that steel can go to panzerschiffes and proper seaworthy CLs and DDs (which the Kriegsmarine was short of).
I don't know how deep I will go into the specs, that's something that I am deeply uninformed about and, to be honest, something that doesn't interest me very much. Very broad overviews on construction and naval policy are probably the deepest I'll go.
The limit is six under the treaty (although that also limits the tonnage to 10k). Being able to field six actual Battleships lets Germany claim "Hey we're back," while seeming like a perfectly acceptable modification the British. Although swapping two of them for carriers is certainly possible. Also the Panzerschiffe's probably aren't the best option going forwards, they're pretty much cut down battlecruisers, with smaller guns and even less armor and the most famous example was ultimately knocked about badly by three cruisers (two of them light) to the point the Graf Spee while operational would have had serious trouble getting away even from the three remaining British ships (the fully armed and ammunitioned Cumberland having arrived to replace the damaged Exeter). They had about enough ammo left for about twenty minutes of firing when trapped at Uruguay, the Cumberland could have pounded her for ninety.
Broadly best to have a few prestige units that can also do shore bombardment in the event of war and then build traditional cruisers and destroyers with the rest of the resources.
Keeping in mind that an AGNA is still on the table in the future, so six isn't a hard limit... also that Germany's pre-dreads can only be replaced twenty years after the start of construction, so they're technically not even allowed six yet.
Right, which is why I'd suggest uptonning to a P-class (and calling them capitals to bypass the WNT) after the first two or three. Without going into detail, Spee's fate was as much to do with mishandling of the fight (splitting the turrets' fire, getting too close, etc etc) as with her design; the Scharns and Bismarcks suffered from much the same. A half-dozen proper cruiser killers allows the Reichsmarine to project some long range offensive power without blowing too much money or steel on it; 41 thousand tons is a lot of steel.
True although it's a prestige thing more than a military need. While L-V isn't one ball he does want to get Germany's pride back and in the 1930's that means a navy with actual Battleship's in it even that's a little impractical or a resource hog. It would also be about "correcting" back the the pre Wilhelm II status quo where Germany had a strong navy but one appropriate for a land power that wouldn't annoy Blighty.
there another thing, the Netherlands always stayed neutral because it had to balance between the UK and Germany.
If these 2 get closer of even ally, there is a chance the Netherlands might snap out of neutrality.
lets call it the Northsea alliance.
it would depend on what belgium does, especially if they are cosying up to france, the Netherlands might get itchy. (at this point they haven't forgotten the crazy demands belgium made post ww1)
If these 2 get closer of even ally, there is a chance the Netherlands might snap out of neutrality.
lets call it the Northsea alliance.
it would depend on what belgium does, especially if they are cosying up to france, the Netherlands might get itchy. (at this point they haven't forgotten the crazy demands belgium made post ww1)
Not impossible although it they're not directly threatened I think they'd still prefer neutrality if possible.
Belgium has the unfortunate issue that they are no one's friend, just a buffer. The French and Germans have both had historical designs on the nation and now, while lacking any outstanding disputes, likewise don't consider Belgium important enough to pay much mind. Britain cares for Belgium... on paper, but beyond ensuring that no threatening enemy controls the Channel Coast, don't reeeaaallllyy care what goes on there.
Currently, besides Britain, Belgium is closer to Germany than to France, though out of necessity, not desire. France has clearly decided to forsake them and Belgium is reluctantly considering making peace with Berlin--for economic reasons if nothing else. Despite this, public opinion is very anti-German, and many, especially the Wallonians, are peeved at the loss of Eupen and Malmedy (since the latter was French-speaking).
Though it makes sense to cosy up to the Deutschland, seeing that they do not really have claims on Belgique, whereas France and Neiderlands have claims on the country
But in the other hand they did try to violently take over only 20 years before, that's bound to sour some to the idea.
That is very true, but French betrayal is more recent, If Britain were to make a faux pas, then perhaps, still it is not a necessity that this friendship happens, but it does feel natural--- semi fascist France tries to grab Wallonie, Belgique runs to Deutsch arms