It’s a bit of a meme, but this needs to be a real Second International party, not just a bunch of red-painted Populists. Synthesising Lincolnian tactics and Marxian doctrine in something similar to the Erfurt Program was the way to go in my view.
TL-191: Filling the Gaps
- Thread starter Craigo
- Start date
oh yes, I liked tracing how you outlined each swing in the theories they adopted, the SLPA/Workingmen's/Grangerite/Greenback coalition in the 80s, then the tension between the old union leaders, the Haymarket/Homestead unionists, Sewer Socialists, and Populists in the 90s, and then DeLeonism forming a bridge to the age of Debs and the Wobblies: each move marches along left-leg-right-leg
I got a lot of notes building up for an eventual "fix fic" and I'd say the Socialists are going to be externally shaped by Galleanist anarchists and the Democrats[1] who're now pro-German (at least when it comes to mobilization and training) and anti-Southern: so the SPA can 1. thread the needle between organized, disciplined labor militancy vs. just bomb-throwing, while also 2. facing down a revanchist, militarist Remembrance Party that by the turn of the century explicitly wants to make the country rise like a phoenix and establish the American Empire of the book title[2][3]
also Turtledove made much of Lincoln predicting any Southron revolution would be Black--presumably that they'd take the revolutionary road rather than by democratizing society
(I can also hear Flora Hamburger overhearing these considerations from the next room and yelling "it's not 'interesting,' it's dialectical!" lol)
[1] my "TL-191.1" calls this era the "National Union Party" to make it seem bigger than just "the other party," underscore its ideological revamping, to mark a break with , and as an ironic nod to the Lincoln-Johnson ticket of 1864 OTL
[2] and the NUP itself will have its own needles to thread, since 1. its ideology is that which gave us the Palmer Raids and 1914 dachshund-kickings OTL, but 2. its base will be Papist hypenated-americans, machine bosses, and homicidal mine-owners
[3] my GOP's reduced to [on edit] Vermont, RI, and Maine 100% and popping up MI-IN-OH-PA and KS-NE, but still strong enough before the 1900s shuffles (which turn them "the Democrats" again for TR's Presidency) to field recognizable names like Garfield, John Sherman, Harrison, and (on the NUP ticket) Thomas Brackeet Reed, Jr., and Nelson Aldrich, and later Charles Fairbanks, Elihu Root, Leonard Wood
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You've hit the nail on the head there: the Socialist Party of the war era is arguably more radical than the SPD. They, after all, oppose the war from 1915 onwards.
My view towards the anarchists was much more that they're a separate force that gets tied to the Socialists by association by the establishment. If I were to rewrite TL-191 I'd have the Republicans fully collapse, a new right-wing "Unionist" Party emerge as the party of Remembrance and government, while the Democrats go down the path of regular old Liberalism, pushed into non competitiveness by the rise of the Socialists.
I think we have the same mind towards the conservative GOP: that Industrial Capital and its OTL Republican representatives are still going to be running the country, and that a GOP "rebrand" of sorts is more likely than the GOP right managing to completely take over the Dems.
That I’ve been absent so long I could barely remember my password, so it’s immensely flattering to be asked for my opinion!😊
Thank You very kindly for that compliment, Hexcron: as for the article itself, my knowledge of the Socialist Movement in any country is very minimal (and my instinctive mistrust of any politician that repeatedly uses the word ‘dialectic’ is considerable) but you certainly makes this sound like a fascinating period in US political history.
It’s also interesting to wonder what Hosea Blackford’s role in and perspective on Dakota becoming a stronghold of the early US Socialist Party might be - one assumes that it is partly this significance that helps him to become the first Socialist VP and the second Socialist President.
I imagine Blackford is a more notable parliamentarian than might appear at first glance (after all, why would the New York gang know enough about him to be so critical during his re-election in 1916?), I expect he certainly got a very nice committee chairmanship during the Coalition Congress of 1919-1921. Blackford's own familiarity with Marxism (which we know from his conversations with Flora is there, just significantly downplayed), is part of the reason why even the cooperativist centre of the party is at least nominally Marxist by the middle of the century. Blackford almost certainly originates as a populist though.
Hey, they made him an early 20th-century Vice President of the United States, how important could he be?
It's been awhile since I've posted in this thread, so heres another leader list.
List of President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS)
1. Joseph Smith Jr. (1830-1844)
2. Brigham Young (1844-1877)
3. John Taylor (1877-1881) [1]
4. Franklin D. Richards I (1881-1899) [2]*
5: Lorenzo Snow (1899-1901)
6: Francis M. Lyman (1901-1916) [3]
7. Heber Louis Jackson (1916) [4]**
8. Charles W. Nibley (1916-1931) [5]
9. Heber Young (1931-1937) [6]
10. Melvin J. Ballard (1937-1939)
11. Joseph White Musser (1939-1944) [7]***
12. Richard R. Lyman (1944- ) [8]
[1] Disappeared during the Mormon War of 1881 and probably died in the Utah desert. His remains were never found.
[2] Richards was placed in control of the LDS church by the US government after he and the rest of the Church promised not to rebel against and remain loyal to the US government. Under his rule, polygamy was banned within the LDS church in 1886 and Utah was admitted to the Union as a state in 1896.
[3] Led the Mormon Rebellion of 1915-1916 and died of a heart attack shortly before the end of the revolt.
[4] ATL son of Thomas Jackson (1823-1883), an English-born member of the LDS church.
[5] Nibley was placed in control of the LDS church by the US government after he and the rest of the Church promised not to rebel against and remain loyal to the US government. New 1st and 2nd Counselors and Apostles were all appointed on the condition they swear loyalty to the US government.
[6] Young (1901-1995) was ATL son of Bingham Young Jr. He was only de-facto President because Mormon fundamentalists would not accept his Presidency. He resigned in 1937 after running for governor of Utah.
[7] Musser was a leader in the Mormon Fundamentalist movement within the LDS church who made compromises with the moderates to get elected President and who then led the Mormon Rebellion of 1942-1944.
[8] Lyman was placed in control of the LDS church by the US government after he and the rest of the Church promised not to rebel against and remain loyal to the US government. New moderate 1st and 2nd Counselors and Apostles were all appointed on the condition they swear loyalty to the US government in return for the Church being allowed to stay in Salt Lake City, Utah.****
*In 1881, 1st Counselor George Q. Cannon (1827-1881), 2nd Counselor Joseph Feilding Smith Sir. (1838-1881), Counselor to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Daniel Wells (1814-1881) two Members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Wilford Woodruff (1807-1881) and Orson Pratt (1811-1881) and interim "President of Deseret" Angus M. Cannon (1834-1881) were executed for insurrection against the US government.
**In 1916, President Heber Louis Jackson (1865-1916), all members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Heber J. Grant, Rudger Clawson, Reed Smoot, Hyrum M. Smith, George Albert Smith, George F. Richards, Orson F. Whitney, David O. McKay, Anthony W. Ivins, Joseph Feilding Smith Jr. and James E. Talmadge, were executed for insurrection against the US government. 1st Counselor Anthon H. Lund (1844-1919), 2nd Counselor Charles W. Penrose (1832-1922), were sentenced to life-imprisonment at Leavenworth Prison due to their old age.
***In 1946, the 1st Counselor Joseph Smith Jessop (1869-1946), 2nd Counselor John Y. Barlow (1874-1946) and all Twelve Apostles, Charles W. Kingston (1884-1946), Gordon Roberts Woolley Sr. (1886-1946), Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. (1886-1946), Leroy S. Johnson (1888-1946), J. Leslie Broadbent (1891-1946), Charles Zitting (1894-1946), Thomas Matthews Woolley (1894-1946), Earl Roberts Woolley (1899-1946), Calvin Roberts Wolley (1901-1946), Louis Kelsch (1905-1946), Alma A. Thompson (1905-1946) and Rulon Jeffs (1909-1946), were executed for insurrection against the US government, and all other Mormon Fundamentalist leaders were sentenced to deportation and indefinite imprisonment on the Big Island of Hawaii.
****The new 1st Counselor was J. Rueben Clark Sr., the new 2nd Councelor was Henry D. Moyle and the new Twelve Apostles were Charles A. Callis, Joseph F. Merrill, John A. Widtsoe, Albert E. Bowen, Stephen L. Richards, Hugh B. Brown, LeGrand Richards, Adam S. Bennion, Spencer W. Kimball, Matthew Cowley, Harold B. Lee and Ezra Taft Benson. Some of these Apostles were removed from the Quorum by President Musser.
List of President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS)
1. Joseph Smith Jr. (1830-1844)
2. Brigham Young (1844-1877)
3. John Taylor (1877-1881) [1]
4. Franklin D. Richards I (1881-1899) [2]*
5: Lorenzo Snow (1899-1901)
6: Francis M. Lyman (1901-1916) [3]
7. Heber Louis Jackson (1916) [4]**
8. Charles W. Nibley (1916-1931) [5]
9. Heber Young (1931-1937) [6]
10. Melvin J. Ballard (1937-1939)
11. Joseph White Musser (1939-1944) [7]***
12. Richard R. Lyman (1944- ) [8]
[1] Disappeared during the Mormon War of 1881 and probably died in the Utah desert. His remains were never found.
[2] Richards was placed in control of the LDS church by the US government after he and the rest of the Church promised not to rebel against and remain loyal to the US government. Under his rule, polygamy was banned within the LDS church in 1886 and Utah was admitted to the Union as a state in 1896.
[3] Led the Mormon Rebellion of 1915-1916 and died of a heart attack shortly before the end of the revolt.
[4] ATL son of Thomas Jackson (1823-1883), an English-born member of the LDS church.
[5] Nibley was placed in control of the LDS church by the US government after he and the rest of the Church promised not to rebel against and remain loyal to the US government. New 1st and 2nd Counselors and Apostles were all appointed on the condition they swear loyalty to the US government.
[6] Young (1901-1995) was ATL son of Bingham Young Jr. He was only de-facto President because Mormon fundamentalists would not accept his Presidency. He resigned in 1937 after running for governor of Utah.
[7] Musser was a leader in the Mormon Fundamentalist movement within the LDS church who made compromises with the moderates to get elected President and who then led the Mormon Rebellion of 1942-1944.
[8] Lyman was placed in control of the LDS church by the US government after he and the rest of the Church promised not to rebel against and remain loyal to the US government. New moderate 1st and 2nd Counselors and Apostles were all appointed on the condition they swear loyalty to the US government in return for the Church being allowed to stay in Salt Lake City, Utah.****
*In 1881, 1st Counselor George Q. Cannon (1827-1881), 2nd Counselor Joseph Feilding Smith Sir. (1838-1881), Counselor to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Daniel Wells (1814-1881) two Members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Wilford Woodruff (1807-1881) and Orson Pratt (1811-1881) and interim "President of Deseret" Angus M. Cannon (1834-1881) were executed for insurrection against the US government.
**In 1916, President Heber Louis Jackson (1865-1916), all members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Heber J. Grant, Rudger Clawson, Reed Smoot, Hyrum M. Smith, George Albert Smith, George F. Richards, Orson F. Whitney, David O. McKay, Anthony W. Ivins, Joseph Feilding Smith Jr. and James E. Talmadge, were executed for insurrection against the US government. 1st Counselor Anthon H. Lund (1844-1919), 2nd Counselor Charles W. Penrose (1832-1922), were sentenced to life-imprisonment at Leavenworth Prison due to their old age.
***In 1946, the 1st Counselor Joseph Smith Jessop (1869-1946), 2nd Counselor John Y. Barlow (1874-1946) and all Twelve Apostles, Charles W. Kingston (1884-1946), Gordon Roberts Woolley Sr. (1886-1946), Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr. (1886-1946), Leroy S. Johnson (1888-1946), J. Leslie Broadbent (1891-1946), Charles Zitting (1894-1946), Thomas Matthews Woolley (1894-1946), Earl Roberts Woolley (1899-1946), Calvin Roberts Wolley (1901-1946), Louis Kelsch (1905-1946), Alma A. Thompson (1905-1946) and Rulon Jeffs (1909-1946), were executed for insurrection against the US government, and all other Mormon Fundamentalist leaders were sentenced to deportation and indefinite imprisonment on the Big Island of Hawaii.
****The new 1st Counselor was J. Rueben Clark Sr., the new 2nd Councelor was Henry D. Moyle and the new Twelve Apostles were Charles A. Callis, Joseph F. Merrill, John A. Widtsoe, Albert E. Bowen, Stephen L. Richards, Hugh B. Brown, LeGrand Richards, Adam S. Bennion, Spencer W. Kimball, Matthew Cowley, Harold B. Lee and Ezra Taft Benson. Some of these Apostles were removed from the Quorum by President Musser.
heh, this reminds me of how I wrote a Note saying "Mormon Lawrence" (of Arabia) in the dead of night thinking how to make the various Utah Wars more than just 3-4 replays of the same dusty conflict, especially since neither I nor he care that much for his 2GW books: so my other notes towards this direction are--
so my TL-191.1 has a Socialist role in UT, de-radicalizing the Mormons in preparation for its admission as a state: the SPA can separate itself from the Russian Bolsheviks and Mexican Republicans' convent-burning reputation (like it'd firmly separated itself from Galleanist "terror-ism" even before the First Red Scare) and Utahns can experience "gentiles" who don't have portraits of Pope and Custer in their parlors
[1] leading to whatever Dune/Cyclone/Timber Sycamore jokes you may wish to make
[2] I have President Hearst: Al Smith seems an unlikely load-bearing figure to keep the SPA as the 2nd party in the 40s
[3] except for Smedley Butler there's no prominent Socialist generals, whereas the GOP will be disproportionately represented among New Englander and Midwestern officers
[4] if some decide to swap butternut for red that definitely won't poison the politics as the Second Constitutional Convention of the re-United States convenes for its 170th anniversary, oh no ...
- the FLDS and other independent Mormons famously crossed OTL's border to Chihuahua and Sonora 19th c., and Richmond'll be excited at getting a lot of militant anti-Yankees (even if they, uh, completely embody every single Yankee characteristic that even Boston Brahmins couldn't)
- TE Lawrence himself just concerned himself with the Hashemites, while someone self-identifying as a "Danite" would be closer to the Ikhwan[1]
- UT immediately votes GOP in its only election (1936) since they've hated the Dems since 1881
- Freedomism will immediately start stomping on the westernmost states, especially since they're a rival hierarchy like Christianity, Judaism, Freemasonry, or the bar
- pro-US Mormons become the most decorated unit in either US or CS military history
so my TL-191.1 has a Socialist role in UT, de-radicalizing the Mormons in preparation for its admission as a state: the SPA can separate itself from the Russian Bolsheviks and Mexican Republicans' convent-burning reputation (like it'd firmly separated itself from Galleanist "terror-ism" even before the First Red Scare) and Utahns can experience "gentiles" who don't have portraits of Pope and Custer in their parlors
[1] leading to whatever Dune/Cyclone/Timber Sycamore jokes you may wish to make
[2] I have President Hearst: Al Smith seems an unlikely load-bearing figure to keep the SPA as the 2nd party in the 40s
[3] except for Smedley Butler there's no prominent Socialist generals, whereas the GOP will be disproportionately represented among New Englander and Midwestern officers
[4] if some decide to swap butternut for red that definitely won't poison the politics as the Second Constitutional Convention of the re-United States convenes for its 170th anniversary, oh no ...
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Seems plausible as a list. I have Joseph F. Smith Jr. as President during GWII currently, but I can see the case for more fundamentalist leadership, rather than just the conservative mainline church leadership of OTL radicalising. Certainly the leadership should be much younger than it was in OTL.
Politically, I've been thinking that Mormonism in Utah/Deseret organises itself in the form of the People's Party (similarly to how things were before statehood in OTL). This party includes both separatists as well as the pro-collaboration Heber Young wing of the church, dominating the political life of the state, and nationally affiliating with the Socialists during the restored statehood period (its members of Congress are observers in the Socialist party room, caucusing with them while retaining relative autonomy on both national and Utah matters). Perhaps something like the OTL Liberal Party could still exist as a "Gentile" sectional interests party as well, likely caucusing with the Democrats.
Thought, what do you think a Entente USA, Central Powers CSA AU would look like?
At the very least I'd expect this to require no British intervention in the Second Mexican War and the Confederacy's relationship with the British and French to deteriorate severely over the slavery issue.
There's also the matter of what would happen to the Mexican Empire in this scenario given its ties to both France and the Confederacy.
At the very least I'd expect this to require no British intervention in the Second Mexican War and the Confederacy's relationship with the British and French to deteriorate severely over the slavery issue.
There's also the matter of what would happen to the Mexican Empire in this scenario given its ties to both France and the Confederacy.
If this was asked like two years ago, I would have been interested for sure, but now, my interest for making TL-191 is very much gone as I rather wish to work on my original Light Novel project.