Not on the scale of 9/11, and probably in different ways.But if America was subjected to a series of smaller terrorist attacks, would they gradually have worn away at America's sense of invincibility and changed pop culture anyways?
Not on the scale of 9/11, and probably in different ways.But if America was subjected to a series of smaller terrorist attacks, would they gradually have worn away at America's sense of invincibility and changed pop culture anyways?
It's true that if Bin Landen got killed in 1998 by a cruise misses strike that Al Queda would try to attack the CONUS but on a smaller scale but it would invite the US to aid the Northern Alliance along with Drone Strikes that would chip Al Queda away and cause the Taliban to slowly lose territory leading to Al Queda to eventually abandon Afghanistan and scatter making planning attacks on the US much more difficult. But an interesting scenario is that at some point in the late 00s to early 2010s Al Queda opts to forgo attacking the mainland and instead strike Hawaii in Oahu during the Christmas vacation at night by acquiring a Learjet and loading it with explosives intending it to crash into the USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor to cause a distraction before sending operatives to seize one part of Hickam Airbase where Military Personnel and their families are spending Christmas time and another group of operatives seize a 5 star hotel in either Honolulu or somewhere in Oahu to seize more hostages causing havoc across the island. Basically something similar to OTL's 2008 Mumbai attack.If you look at the 1990s and early 2000s, there were more than a few harbingers of what was to come: the first attack on the WTC, the East African embassy bombings, the bombing of the USS Cole, the increasing fanaticism of the Taliban as symbolized by their destruction of those Buddhist statues (assholes).
Even if Bin Laden had been killed, there would've still been violent extremists wanting to tear down America, albeit in a less organized manner.
But if America was subjected to a series of smaller terrorist attacks, would they gradually have worn away at America's sense of invincibility and changed pop culture anyways?
It's true that if Bin Landen got killed in 1998 by a cruise misses strike that Al Queda would try to attack the CONUS but on a smaller scale but it would invite the US to aid the Northern Alliance along with Drone Strikes that would chip Al Queda away and cause the Taliban to slowly lose territory leading to Al Queda to eventually abandon Afghanistan and scatter making planning attacks on the US much more difficult. But an interesting scenario is that at some point in the late 00s to early 2010s Al Queda opts to forgo attacking the mainland and instead strike Hawaii in Oahu during the Christmas vacation at night by acquiring a Learjet and loading it with explosives intending it to crash into the USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor to cause a distraction before sending operatives to seize one part of Hickam Airbase where Military Personnel and their families are spending Christmas time and another group of operatives seize a 5 star hotel in either Honolulu or somewhere in Oahu to seize more hostages causing havoc across the island. Basically something similar to OTL's 2008 Mumbai attack.
No. Hell, people seemed to have moved on pretty quickly from the Oklahoma city bombing and that was probably worse then most of what would happen instead of 9/11 if that never happened. Although to be honest I feel like this convo is increasingly moving in the direction of "what if 9/11 had a different target" rather then no 9/11.So would such an attack, in your opinion, have the same deep impact as 9/11?
No. Hell, people seemed to have moved on pretty quickly from the Oklahoma city bombing and that was probably worse then most of what would happen instead of 9/11 if that never happened. Although to be honest I feel like this convo is increasingly moving in the direction of "what if 9/11 had a different target" rather then no 9/11.
Continued economic stagnation and such may have ended the "good times" as Americans increasingly came to feel like things aren't working out for them.But what other events in the world could've altered the post-1989 attitude that stretched into the early 2000s?
Continued economic stagnation and such may have ended the "good times" as Americans increasingly came to feel like things aren't working out for them.
Probably. I think American shows are more focused on domestic issues plauging America -- 24 is less popular, while shows like the Wire, the Sopranos and Breaking Bad are seen as more poignant -- not unlikely that in a no-9/11 TL we'd get a movie centered around the Enron Scandal that takes the place of the Big Short.While this might be outside of the scope of this TL, could there have been more attention on America's deindustrialization, with even some movies and shows exploring the issue more without the War on Terror taking up people's attention?
Probably. I think American shows are more focused on domestic issues plauging America -- 24 is less popular, while shows like the Wire, the Sopranos and Breaking Bad are seen as more poignant -- not unlikely that in a no-9/11 TL we'd get a movie centered around the Enron Scandal that takes the place of the Big Short.
I mean -- it would be, I don't see why it wouldn't be.So, in a world without 9/11, would we take a far more nuanced look at the 1990s and how mirage-like its prosperity would seem? In others, would 90s nostalgia be as prevalent if the 2000s and 2010s were mainly known as the decade of economic stagnation?
There would have 100% been more focus on America's domestic issues without the war on terror taking up a large part of Bush's presidency, although we have no way of knowing just what sorts of issues would become most prevalent. It's equally likely US politics would descend into a morass of culture war stuff while the economic consensus remains.So could the 2000s have just been known as the beginning of a "lost era", as Americans started to feel the pinch of the rising cost of living and deindustrialization, especially since 2001 was when China entered the WTO? Would Enron's fall have precipitated this attitude?
While this might be outside of the scope of this TL, could there have been more attention on America's deindustrialization, with even some movies and shows exploring the issue more without the War on Terror taking up people's attention?
Would these shows really be received all that differently? I'm not sure no 9/11 would change their (already extremely positive) reception.Probably. I think American shows are more focused on domestic issues plauging America -- 24 is less popular, while shows like the Wire, the Sopranos and Breaking Bad are seen as more poignant -- not unlikely that in a no-9/11 TL we'd get a movie centered around the Enron Scandal that takes the place of the Big Short.
No, the 90s economic boom was actually quite real, and so 90s nostalgia would very much become a thing in some format I think. Plus you have to remember that nostalgia is rarely based on rational indicators, 90% of it is just people reminiscing about the days when they were children with no responsibility and putting that into the media they work on.So, in a world without 9/11, would we take a far more nuanced look at the 1990s and how mirage-like its prosperity would seem? In others, would 90s nostalgia be as prevalent if the 2000s and 2010s were mainly known as the decade of economic stagnation?
So, in a world without 9/11, would we take a far more nuanced look at the 1990s and how mirage-like its prosperity would seem? In others, would 90s nostalgia be as prevalent if the 2000s and 2010s were mainly known as the decade of economic stagnation?
Eh, it would still be widespread imo. 80s nostalgia was all the rage for a while and it didn't really have that going for it. It's just the nature of people aging and getting a rose tinted view of their childhoods.The main reason why '90s nostalgia became as widespread as it did in our timeline is because it is seen as the last of the "before times" (as in, before 9/11 and the War on Terror).
Did it?, from what I remember, the 2002-2008 period was the peak for edgy and dark video games, movies, and comics, when goth leather spike anti-hero aesthetic was everywhere.Tbh I think that 9/11 made a lot of entertainment more lighthearted, not less, as there was a perception that people wanted simple escapism. So if anything no 9/11 may have seen sonic go full 90s anti-hero with everything that entails.
To an extent yes, but it was already well on its way to becoming that during the 90s, and without 9/11 this process would be even faster.Did it?, from what I remember, the 2002-2008 period was the peak for edgy and dark video games, movies, and comics, when goth leather spike anti-hero aesthetic was everywhere.
Unless the attack on Pearl Harbor or Hickam Air Base would be like December 7th, 1941, it probably would not have the "rallying around the flag" effect. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think AQ would focus on Hawaii when an attack on the CONUS such as in New York and Washington would have a bigger impact than Hawaii. The 21st Century isn't 1941. The defenses around Pearl Harbor and Hickam Air Base would be stronger than it was in 1941. Since Oahu itself is militarized, expect immediate retalation to crush Al-Qaeda attempts to attack it.It's true that if Bin Landen got killed in 1998 by a cruise misses strike that Al Queda would try to attack the CONUS but on a smaller scale but it would invite the US to aid the Northern Alliance along with Drone Strikes that would chip Al Queda away and cause the Taliban to slowly lose territory leading to Al Queda to eventually abandon Afghanistan and scatter making planning attacks on the US much more difficult. But an interesting scenario is that at some point in the late 00s to early 2010s Al Queda opts to forgo attacking the mainland and instead strike Hawaii in Oahu during the Christmas vacation at night by acquiring a Learjet and loading it with explosives intending it to crash into the USS Missouri at Pearl Harbor to cause a distraction before sending operatives to seize one part of Hickam Airbase where Military Personnel and their families are spending Christmas time and another group of operatives seize a 5 star hotel in either Honolulu or somewhere in Oahu to seize more hostages causing havoc across the island. Basically something similar to OTL's 2008 Mumbai attack.
90's nostalgia would probably come later. However, I still remember even in 2002-2004, people were being nostalgic of the 90s. For one thing, Nickelodeon still aired their 90's Games and Sports segments.1990s nostalgia likely wouldn't be as prevalent in this alternate timeline.
The main reason why '90s nostalgia became as widespread as it did in our timeline is because it is seen as the last of the "before times" (as in, before 9/11 and the War on Terror).
If there is '90s nostalgia in this alternate timeline, it would probably be focused on being the last decade in which the Internet and cellphones weren't regular aspects of people's lives.
I remember 80s nostalgia was very strong in the early 2000s. It has seen resurgence again in the 2010s with the vaporwave aesthetics.Eh, it would still be widespread imo. 80s nostalgia was all the rage for a while and it didn't really have that going for it. It's just the nature of people aging and getting a rose tinted view of their childhoods.
Interesting. The butterflies here are something to consider...Tbh I think that 9/11 made a lot of entertainment more lighthearted, not less, as there was a perception that people wanted simple escapism. So if anything no 9/11 may have seen sonic go full 90s anti-hero with everything that entails.
So could the 2000s have just been known as the beginning of a "lost era", as Americans started to feel the pinch of the rising cost of living and deindustrialization, especially since 2001 was when China entered the WTO? Would Enron's fall have precipitated this attitude?
While this might be outside of the scope of this TL, could there have been more attention on America's deindustrialization, with even some movies and shows exploring the issue more without the War on Terror taking up people's attention?
Bingo. I remember one of the first things from here when I was doing alt history stuff was on the Enron scandal. With no 9/11, Enron would be the main focus. In fact, it would put the focus on alot of the economic madness going on at the time, which would begin a period of economic anxiety that would be topped off with the Great Recession, serving as the crescendo for all of this, beginning a new period of frustration and turmoil.
And what happens after depends on who’s in charge.
Bush Jr could win in 2004, though it’d only be slightly better margins than his 2000 win. This would make the backlash against the GOP more painful in 2008 though we’d end up in a similar situation as OTL with a neoliberal like Obama or Ms Clinton serving to disappoint and radicalize. That said, with no 9/11, this is no external target to lash against so culture wars may get uglier earlier than OTL.
If Bush loses in 2004, depends who beats him. Dean’s fiscal policies would cost him victory unless he adopts an aggressive stance on big business and target them. Kerry may still win then.
Kerry would probably do fairly well in 2005-2009, but how he’d handle the Recession is a massive wild card. I don’t know if he’d be able to do anything major, both from his stance and Congress. That said, he might have enough folk to try and push for something. If he wins in 2008, then also depends on what happens next, but I still see stuff for the banks, growing disappointment and so on. GOP may go in 2012.
Alternately, the GOP wins in 2008 by a close margin, but would screw up the financial recovery and with the memories of Enron and so on in mind, may swing the populist energy to the Dems. Something like Occupy Wall Street becoming bigger and then coalescing with a potential Sanders 2012 campaign.