TurtleDove's Two Fronts War is out!

I am glad I have not supported the Hitler's War series financially. I have checked all of them our of the library. I still can't get over the totally ASB switching sides. The two fronts no ASB but a frustration I have had with Turtledove's works. He is not writing AH. He is writing novels with an AH setting. In Two Fronts, we very little of the big picture. It reminds me of how we never learn in the TL 191 series how Germany won World War I. Another complaint I have is that having so many servicemen got repetitive. I found the Jewish Women in Germany and the Women in Philadelphia plots the most interesting. Of course I am going to read the next one. I do want to find how the war ends. I waiting for the next one to arrive at the public library.
 
It reminds me of how we never learn in the TL 191 series how Germany won World War I.
I thought this was obvious, No US=No Entente win [to be fair it would be more complicated but without US raw materials the Entente could never build a war machine as strong as they did using purely their own raw materials
 
I thought this was obvious, No US=No Entente win [to be fair it would be more complicated but without US raw materials the Entente could never build a war machine as strong as they did using purely their own raw materials

That and the Canadian front sucking away all the Canadian units that fought in Europe in OTL along with some British units.
 
I thought this was obvious, No US=No Entente win [to be fair it would be more complicated but without US raw materials the Entente could never build a war machine as strong as they did using purely their own raw materials

That and the Canadian front sucking away all the Canadian units that fought in Europe in OTL along with some British units.

Let's not forget no blockade of Germany. That was one of the few things that Turtledove tells us, IIRC. The US and High Seas fleets try to meet up in the Atlantic to face the Anglo-French fleet, and neither side is able to totally crush the other. So the US doesn't send any supplies to the Entente (both because it is at war with them, and because it is using it themselves), the US actually helps the Germans sink some British imports from the Western Hemisphere, and finally at least a trickle of US aid probably reaches the Germans. In my opinion, the absence of the blockade by itself gives the Germans a real chance at victory.
 

d32123

Banned
Let's not forget no blockade of Germany. That was one of the few things that Turtledove tells us, IIRC. The US and High Seas fleets try to meet up in the Atlantic to face the Anglo-French fleet, and neither side is able to totally crush the other. So the US doesn't send any supplies to the Entente (both because it is at war with them, and because it is using it themselves), the US actually helps the Germans sink some British imports from the Western Hemisphere, and finally at least a trickle of US aid probably reaches the Germans. In my opinion, the absence of the blockade by itself gives the Germans a real chance at victory.

Wasn't there some stuff about stopping Argentine beef from getting to Britain?
 

Garrison

Donor
I thought this was obvious, No US=No Entente win [to be fair it would be more complicated but without US raw materials the Entente could never build a war machine as strong as they did using purely their own raw materials

But surely that only makes sense if events have gone as per OTL in Europe up until 1914? With a POD in the 1860s I'm having a hard time seeing how you could wind up with such a semi-identical scenario.
 
But surely that only makes sense if events have gone as per OTL in Europe up until 1914? With a POD in the 1860s I'm having a hard time seeing how you could wind up with such a semi-identical scenario.
The books give the same initial set up as the OTL WWI in Europe, down to the Archduke dying on the same day, Turtledove slaughtered butterflies
 
This series (War That Came Early) shouldn't have been at least six books (Two Fronts is #5 and I've heard there's at least one more planned). It feels really padded. Couldn't this have been done in four books?
 
i think we of the alternate history community are more critical of him than most because we think in terms of plausibility. yeah, there's all the repetition with Carsten's sunburn and whatnot, but what about if we disregard the plausibility of a scenario and run with it on story? it's also true that alot of his series get weaker towards the end, but even so...
 

d32123

Banned
Did Turtledove ever write anything good? I've only ever heard bad things here about him.

I thought TL-191 was decent, even if it was in a constant state of decline after the first novel. I actually read all of them, which is saying something. And his short stories are generally good.
 
I thought this was obvious, No US=No Entente win [to be fair it would be more complicated but without US raw materials the Entente could never build a war machine as strong as they did using purely their own raw materials

I think the poster wished for more detail on how Germany won WW1 (specific battles, campaigns, etc), not why. As you say, combine the US and Germany and the alliance is pretty hard to beat. One of my biggest frustrations of TL-191 is the fact that we learn so little about the global war going on except through the awful "You know Sam, I read the other day that Germany...." technique.
 
I think the poster wished for more detail on how Germany won WW1 (specific battles, campaigns, etc), not why. As you say, combine the US and Germany and the alliance is pretty hard to beat. One of my biggest frustrations of TL-191 is the fact that we learn so little about the global war going on except through the awful "You know Sam, I read the other day that Germany...." technique.

I think the gap has to be filled by US (us not the United States) ;)

Basically you can assume that - initially - a CS victory will not change much for Europe

Prussia will fight Austria for the hegemony in Germany

After that a Franco Prussian war is most likely, so until the onset of How Few Remain in Europe virtaally nothing will have changed.

The Scramble for Africa and Asia will also be not really different as both CSA and US will still be occupied in America (here you get changes Cuba is bought, no Panama canal (IIRC))

The most important change is the fact that the US is not expanding in the Pacific - its Japan that fights spain - which is beaten and teh Phillies become a Japanese posession.

Its also likely that at some point there is a Russian/Japanese war as both nations will be interested in China.

Spain probably sells its remaining posessions to Germany.

Basically you can come to the same power distribution as OTL without leaving the "path of plausibility"

Well - now to the "Great War"

THE assassination of FF - lets say this is a plot device and take it as it si (IIRC Turtledove gets him killed by a bomb - OTL it was a gunshot, so there is a difference - however a small one ;))

The war starts as OTL (SchliefFen Plan, Austrian blunders, Russia defeated at Tannenberg, OE joining the CP)

You can assume that the non American theaters are just going as OTL

a few differences. Teh "ostasiengeschade" of Graf Spee (the man not the ship) is sailing to Chile and stays there as Chile is friendly to the CPs - so battle of Coronel, but no Battle of the Falklands.

IIRC Brasil joined late, so we can further disregard South America.

The biggest change is that Italy stays neutral - which will result in a better performace of Austria Hungary.

To balance I assume that UK manages to get more troops from india (offering them dominion status - did not OTL as it was not necessary - basically indian war contribution is higher to counter the absent of US loans and materials)

Overall the Entente troops are less supplied as otl, but OTL Germany and Austria fought despite low supplies, so not totally unrealistic)

So you get just the same outcome in Europe until early 1917 when russia collapses - soon afterwards the Entente sues for peace - not totally ASB. ;)

THE naval actions I justify with a higher Japanese involvement babancing out the US navy (weaker than otl due to US/CS split of forces). THE Hochseeflotte is stronger, but the ships need recoaling possibilities to fight across an ocean - so while US navy and HSF cooperate the RN is still able to hold the lines ;)
 
THE naval actions I justify with a higher Japanese involvement babancing out the US navy (weaker than otl due to US/CS split of forces). THE Hochseeflotte is stronger, but the ships need recoaling possibilities to fight across an ocean - so while US navy and HSF cooperate the RN is still able to hold the lines ;)
I'm not sure why the USN would be weaker than OTL, Germany with a smaller economy than the USA minus CSA and France and Russia to think about built the High Seas fleet, while the US only has the CSA and Canada [fairly obviously weaker than France and Russia], assuming the US spends the same proportion on the military as Germany does it can afford both a bigger army and a bigger navy

If anything the RN is stronger in TL-191, namely it feels confident enough in bottling up the high seas fleet and securing the sealanes to Canada that it left capital ships in the Pacific which it didn't OTL, which suggests it has an extra squadron or two of capital ships
 
i think we of the alternate history community are more critical of him than most because we think in terms of plausibility. yeah, there's all the repetition with Carsten's sunburn and whatnot, but what about if we disregard the plausibility of a scenario and run with it on story? it's also true that alot of his series get weaker towards the end, but even so...

Well, it's the fact that his books are marketed as being plausible, whereas in fact they're far from it. Not ASB implausible (because books with an ASB backstory can be a great read), but implausible implausible. I was even thinking of starting a thread called 100/500/1000 implausible things about Tl-191.
 
Well, it's the fact that his books are marketed as being plausible, whereas in fact they're far from it. Not ASB implausible (because books with an ASB backstory can be a great read), but implausible implausible. I was even thinking of starting a thread called 100/500/1000 implausible things about Tl-191.
Except they aren't marketed as plausible. No mainstream alternate history novel is.
 
Except they aren't marketed as plausible. No mainstream alternate history novel is.

Maybe not, but if any author does an ATL in book form, they should at least try and make it plausible; Turtledove does not.

An exception to this rule would be a novel set after an implausible event to highlight what life could've been like, a la Fatherland.
 
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