TL-191: Filling the Gaps

bguy

Donor
I tend to favour the notion of his being a cold-blooded pragmatist with a tendency to throw ice water on warm, fuzzy Southern illusions (Hence his having been landed in the historically inconsequential office of Vice President*). This also ties into the notion of Wilson being (relatively speaking) a 'kinder, gentler' Whig, since the Old Guard might want a man of their own on the ticket (and Wilson might want to make sure the man in question is somebody he's in no great danger of being shunted aside for).

*Note that this is partly inspired by my mental image of him as a sort of mirror image to Theodore Roosevelt (Who in our own history seems to have been selected as McKinley's Vice President mostly so he could be safely shooed away from the levers of power ... in theory).

The idea of Wilson having a conservative vice president to balance the ticket makes sense though it does raise the question of how Semmes was able to get the Whig presidential nomination in 1915 if he wasn't ideologically aligned with Wilson. (I would certainly expect a term limited Wilson to move heaven and earth to insure his hand picked successor ends up in the Gray House come March 1916.)
 
It's quite possible that the Party Bosses decided that Semmes fit their needs in AD 1915 more elegantly than the candidates Wilson preferred (Rendering the latter's opinion moot): its's equally possible that Semmes might have convinced Wilson they were ideologically-aligned, whether or not this was actually the case (A man who can convince the Confederate States Congress into arming Confederate coloureds even after a Black Rebellion must have powerful gift of the gab, to say the least).
 
potential papabili for 1915, drawn from the second-stringers of OTL's 1908-20 conventions

GA-born Wilsonite William Gibbs McAdoo: I have him as the "organizer of victory",* the only reason the CSA didn't get completely Shermanned as it should have been once its barrels broke; probably too associated with Wilson and then the war itself to stand in '15 or '21
KY Gov. William O'Connell Bradley, pro-suffrage Republican
AL Sen. Oscar Underwood, so Progressive he even fought the Klan, but zero charisma
KY Gov. Augustus E. Willson, (failed) reformer and OTL Republican
part-Cherokee Wilsonite Robert Latham Owen
MS Sen. John Sharp Williams, Wilsonite
GA state Sen. Clark Howell, muckraker and thus Rad-Lib-adjacent
VA Sen. Carter Glass, Wilsonite and segregationist

most all Southerners who got delegates OTL were Wilsonites, except:
NC Sen. Furnifold McLendel Simmons, leader of the White-Supremacist Wilmington coup

* I also have him as the namesake of "shrimp McAdoo," a seafood dish defined by its unappetizing nature, perhaps wartime ersatz, which was revealed to me in a dream when I was in high school

Funniest Name for a Pol Mentioned in Party Conventions Prize: James Brownlow Yellowley
 
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James Brownlow Yellowley
For some reason this made me think "... and now we know why Mr Brownlow adopted Oliver Twist."


AL Sen. Oscar Underwood, so Progressive he even fought the Klan, but zero charisma
A 'bama man who fought the Klan? This poor fellow must be the unluckiest man in politics, to be lumped in forevermore with Frank Underwood (An infinitely less admirable figure).


KY Gov. William O'Connell Bradley, pro-suffrage Republican
This sounds more like the makings of a Radical Liberal than a Whig (Though this is mostly grounded in my suspicion that if a man can endure - and survive - being a Republican in Dixie during the Jim Crow era, he's probably enough of a masochist to be a Rad-Lib in Timeline 191).
 
Anyway, my compliments on having put together this shortlist MisterP and my thanks for having shared it with us.:)

I've been working on something to do with Timeline-191 (With help from @RamscoopRaider) but I'm not sure it fits FILLING THE GAPS continuity and will therefore post it in a thread to be determined (Once I've finished working out some numbers).
 
ironically if anyone's the heir to the historical Whigs it's the Rad-Libs (not that those terms mean much since the parties only solidified after the Second War in my headcanon): despite the name sounding like it might be considered fighting words in the South, they're two political currents that we'd call right-wing today--Latin radicalism was more about mandatory secular education[1], White immigration and ballot access (to vote for them, not for any worker party), the colonial "civilizing mission," obliteration of local cultures, no special protections since everyone's equal before the law and in the tender hands of the free market, and a taste for strongman dynasties; British Liberalism was free-trader but also industrialist (which wouldn't work out in the highly-peripheral CSA), but would fit the merchants and judges of the CSA who have time to read something other than the exhausting diaries of some minor ancestor in the 18th c.[2]

this proto-Entente is cultivating more relations with one another than TTL, and the CSA's no more embarrassing to trade with post-Manumission than Brazil[3]: so a lot of Europeanised[4] Southrons will want to present a picture of finishing schools on the Loire or preppies taking in the marbles of Italy[5]--rather than a hee-hawing bushwhacker who spits baccy on the rug and chases off rival suitors with a Bowie knife

so the R-Ls would have a good shot in OTL swing states like Upland Kentucky[6] (ironically a stronghold of the prewar Whigs, though I see the two parties as more structural than regional), and backed by the NCO up-and-comers in the Army[7] who realize even massive industrialization and every European Power combined couldn't actually stop the North

[1] to produce military engineers, chemists, and trigonometrists for the artillery rather than someone with violent opinions about the seed of Cain or who can speak Homeric Greek with all the correct archaisms--this was actually a debate in prewar Britain since the French and Germans were teaching students science while Churchill recalls being caned for daring to pipe up and ask why he'd ever need to learn the Latin interrogative case to ask a question to a table
[2] the Whigs don't reject "foreign" influence at all, holding up the Deep South as the most English of ex-colonies, with not even the Borderers and Scots-Irish of the Uplands: they look back not just to Britain, but to a Britain of the 17th c.
[3] though I have the CSA as the most awkward possible ally except maybe Tippu Tip 19th c.: London will be favoring the North until the Great-Power shuffles of the 1900s and 10s, just as OTL it was drawing closer to Germany than France before Fashoda and Agadir: in my revision the RN "offered" to maintain the 1862 blockade and neutrality in all the North American waters '82, which got it sucked into actual combat at the San Francisco Mint, Seattle, Buffalo, and the Atlantic
[4] the reforms of that Yankee sumbitch Webster were gone even by 1880
[5] there's even schools for Negro butlers in declining rural towns in England, where the freedmen will feel a new sort of freedom they'll bring home with them (or to the Canadian free population)
[6] I personally have Kentucky Union but "neutralized" after 1863, the truckling Democrats agreeing to keep the US Army out, hunting "contraband," and throwing money at it, which just makes Frankfort into a huge brat that uses the '81 Sonora Crisis to seize Ohio ships and defect anyway; unlike the canon, that gives the two republics some really intense casus belli
[7] this military cohort produces a lot of "military reformers," but also the biggest reactionaries
 
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Anyway, my compliments on having put together this shortlist MisterP and my thanks for having shared it with us.:)

I've been working on something to do with Timeline-191 (With help from @RamscoopRaider) but I'm not sure it fits FILLING THE GAPS continuity and will therefore post it in a thread to be determined (Once I've finished working out some numbers).
looking forward to it! my Camp Hill victory notes are also too big to hijack a collaborative thread with (and the list is just from McCyclopedia, I have absolutely zero historical expertise in the 19th-c. US South)
 
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Given that servile insurrection was one of the biggest fears of southern planters if they were to free their slaves, would it have become a popular option after 1882 for some planters to send their slaves to Sierra Leone or Liberia instead of freeing/sharecropping?
 
Given that servile insurrection was one of the biggest fears of southern planters if they were to free their slaves, would it have become a popular option after 1882 for some planters to send their slaves to Sierra Leone or Liberia instead of freeing/sharecropping?
one interesting factor is Canada's long role as the end of the Underground Railroad, and as the transit-point for Sierra Leone before then; so while state-level fugitive "contraband" laws (KY, and maybe IN and MO[1]) cause wrangling (Dems can even oppose them after being stung as too "soft" on the Secessionists)--so after they started the war and the Copperheads stabbed the Republic in the back, now they want us to enforce literal enemy laws from a still-unrecognized[2] rebel conspiracy?!

there's even several otherwise-conservative figures I can imagine taking great glee in ripping apart the Reverse Underground Railroad (though wouldn't the escapees be even more comfortable in less-prejudiced Canada? there isn't a history of blaming some people for the war that happened to come to an early conclusion there, you see ...)

also I'm amused at the idea of Richmond's plantocrat fake aristocrats completely tongue-tied meeting with Monrovia's plenipotentiary, who hails them in perfect diplomatic French and puts his hand out to shake, and you'll never guess the name of the vacuous monopoly party he represents; also I have the case of slavery in Liberia down as a CS cause celebre,[3] letting the Fire-Eaters squeal "see?! they do it to each other the first chance they get!" and the Yankees can't say boo[4]

another interesting event is Frederick Douglass and US Grant trying to negotiate the annexation of Santo Domingo (which was flip-flopping back and forth with Madrid, or even Colombia)

[1] I have MO as being under enough bipartisan control to get something more like OTL's Reconstruction
[2] until 1883, when the official flag drops 11 stars with the first inter-American treaty
[3] a reverse Belgian Congo controversy
[4] Native issues like the Five Civilized Tribes siding with Richmond, the Long Walk of the Navajo, or the Sioux fleeing "retributive" extermination into Manitoba, are also weaponized against US liberals
 
I’ve been wondering for a while now where the State Capitol of Virginia would be located after the War of Secession - this being a Harry Turtledove setting, I’m assuming Danville or Lynchburg would be the most likely candidates (and of the two Lynchburg seems to be the most plausible candidate, given it’s central location and wealth of railroad links prior to the Civil War).

May I please ask if this logic holds water? (I assume that Richmond CSA is the “seat of the government of the Confederate States” alluded to in their Constitution, though I’m not sure how the ‘no larger than ten square miles’ limit on the size of that district would work with the landscape around Richmond).
I also want to add it's surprising that only one of the American republics moved its capital wholesale because of the threat of artillery

maybe that was a provision in the endless sheaf of treaties 1917-22, to keep the CS President and Congress within reach of zeppelins and HAUBITZEN on the Rappahannock; my notes are that in a moment of imperial pan-American fat-headed triumph the US returns the capital 1917, but by 1930 Congress has trooped back north to deal with the Depression

(I actually have a brief note that Featherston's meth-addled brain's even plotting a new, LOYAL capital, somewhere on the GA-AL border furthest from rebels Black and White, one that'll have HIS name, HIS face, like that Truheeow feller in Santo Domingo or Benny in Naples*)

* this is also the last thought of the Snake
 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Wars
Since the filling the gaps between the 1860s all away until the 1945, there was a conflict between the coal miners and the coal companies in the late 19th and early 20th century.

There was numerous uprisings and defense by the coal miners against the unfair practice by the coal industry but West Virginia was the most famous and largest uprising and the biggest secessionist conflict since the Civil War.

So let's speculate about what the Coal wars will be in TL191?
 
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, since Jefferson Pinkard was the chief commandant of Camp Determination, wasn't he also elevated to de facto concentration camp inspector for all of the CSA, or was that position potentially held by someone else?
 
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Wars
Since the filling the gaps between the 1860s all away until the 1945, there was a conflict between the coal miners and the coal companies in the late 19th and early 20th century.

There was numerous uprisings and defense by the coal miners against the unfair practice by the coal industry but West Virginia was the most famous and largest uprising and the biggest secessionist conflict since the Civil War.

So let's speculate about what the Coal wars will be in TL191?
Well with the Socialists being an actual power and the opposing party to the Democrats, I would imagine there wouldn't be as many revolts as there was OTL like Blair Mountain, but I can definitely see West Virginia being a Socialist Stronghold.
 
Well with the Socialists being an actual power and the opposing party to the Democrats, I would imagine there wouldn't be as many revolts as there was OTL like Blair Mountain, but I can definitely see West Virginia being a Socialist Stronghold.
Would West Virginia of TL-191 be like OTL West Virginia, a state that eventually becomes conservative?
 
Would West Virginia of TL-191 be like OTL West Virginia, a state that eventually becomes conservative?
It’s definitely possible. Especially if the Socialists end up moving to the left like OTL Democrats. You could even have a situation where the Socialists dominate at the state level but federally West Virginia votes Democrat.
 
Just something I have been wondering about, would the 1911 Terra Nova expedition [the one famously headed by Robert Scott, a.k.a Scott of The Antarctic] probably still have gone ahead in the TL ~ 191 Universe.

I have also been wondering if there might be an equivalent of the U.S. New Orleans Class cruiser in this same universe, and, if so, what its name might be, as I'm 99.7% sure the U.S. wouldn't name a ship after an enemy city.
 
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