Frederick II was the Holy Roman Emperor and the King of Sicily. He wanted to unite Italy under his rule. The Papal were in the middle of his territories. Pope Innocent IV wanted to expand his authority. This put the Emperor and the Pope on a collision course. The Pope tried escape and excommunicate the Emperor. He successfully escaped Rome to France and excommunicated Frederick. But what if the Emperor captured the Pope and stabbed him to death ? He forces the new conclave to elect his puppet to the Papal throne. He defeated his opposition in Lombardy and Germany winning a victory to cement his dynasty's rule like Philip Augustus at Bouvines. He reduces the Church to his bureaucracy.
Frederick II kills Pope and makes Church his bureaucracy
- Thread starter Ohfshkssgb
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He doesn't even need to do that - the smarter course of action would be making his own antipope and then deposing the other one. killing a reigning pope is a on a whole another level and would gain him nothing but new enemies.
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Even better solution, after his victory against the Lombard league in 1237 ( possibly trying to capture the bulk of the Ambrosian army, which in Otl, taking advantage of the night, had largely managed to escape, but if he were captured by imperial troops which would leave the city dangerously exposed ), he besieged Milan ( so as to force it to surrender, on his own terms ) which left Gregory IX isolated in Italy, while Frederick II continued to support the Ghibelline faction in Rome ( who was very strong ) and finally at the death of Gregory in 1241, he appears near the Urbe to influence the conclave in his favor, and in doing so finds himself with a Pope indebted to him, and politically with our hands tied, since I imagine Federico having spent time in the city, so as to strengthen the position of the senate ( made up mostly of Ghibellines ) with respect to the papal power
@John Fredrick Parker
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I don't think that would work either -- no-one else would have any reason to accept either the deposition or the antipope as legitimate.
The best option, I think, would be to imprison Innocent IV and try and pressure him into a more pro-Imperial stance. If this is successful, great; if not, keep him in confinement with limited ability to cause trouble, and try and influence the next Conclave into choosing a more pliable candidate.
ETA: I suppose he could kill Innocent if he deems it too risky to let him live, but he'd have to make it look like an accident. Some kind of poison that can be passed off as a disease would probably be best. Openly stabbing the Pope to death would be a good way to make most of Christendom, including his own vassals, hate Frederick.
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I agree with the notion that Frederick killing an incumbent Pope would be useless (all it does is alienate half of Europe) and that setting up your own antipope is the better solution. Holy Roman Emperors had already been doing it for centuries whenever they came into conflict with the Papacy.
in reality, as I already wrote in a previous comment, he wouldn't even need to create an Anti - Pope, but only to foment a revolt on the part of the Roman Ghibelline aristocracies against the Pope, with the aim of making him flee from Rome or at least forcing him to concentrate on internal politics in the Urbe ( 1 ), leaving the field free to Federico, at least until the next conclave, which depending on future developments may be very close in time, but otherwise, creating an antipope will cause enough internal problems for Innocent, so that he cannot fully concentrate on thwarting Frederick's political machinations, but the problem still remains that this does not automatically mean a greater unification of the Empire ( or just Italy / Germany ) easily increases the royal power, but it would be appropriate for Frederick to seek an agreement with the various potentates of HRE, in a similar way to the Golden Bull of Otl but which is also extended to Italy and royal Burgundy
1 ) after all, the first municipal experience of Rome, managed by the senate, ended a few decades ago, in 1183, so it is not unthinkable that someone would want to try to imitate this period
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The easiest way to do this is to: 1. Have the HRE survive his bout of dysentery in 1250, 'benignly' take over guarding the pope and once Innocent iv dies, get himself elected pope or, 2. Have Innocent IV die much sooner.
Wasn't a problem for Philip IV and Papacy must be shown it's place that had no buisness in politics
But Philip did not order the death of Boniface in Otl, that was a myth that was formed over the following centuries ( which was happily fueled by his oppositor political leaders ), in reality Boniface died due to the shock suffered by the humiliation resulting from the famous Anagni's slap ( by Sciarra Colonna ) and subsequent imprisonment, which worsened a not exactly rosy medical situation, furthermore Frederick would not need to go that far, given that unlike Philip, he would have various methods at his complete disposal to actively influence Papal policy in his favor, of which the vast majority are legally accepted in the medieval political landscape ( and some of them I have already discussed in my previous comments to this thread )
Although I personally believe that in such a scenario, Frederick must necessarily take advantage of the truce obtained from the Lombard League and above all from Rome, to go back to Germany ( where he had no longer set foot since the revolt of his son Henry VII ) and begin a series of important political reforms ( 1 ) in the region that can strengthen the central government and allow it to overcome even a moment of crisis ( such as for example Otl Great Interregnum or the chaos at the top in the subsequent period of the Kings - Counts or of course the Mongolian threat ) then it should return in Italy, it means working to try to extend these reforms locally too ( perhaps convening some imperial diet, so as to remind local actors that the royal presence does not necessarily mean a conflict, but rather should mainly lead to mediated solutions , furthermore they would be events in which to show all his skill in propaganda communication ) to conclude even creating his strongholds in strategic areas would not be a bad idea, even if I do not consider it a truly necessary point, compared to the others listed above, in any case to be clear by strongholds, I am thinking more of the cities he founded ( like L'Aquila ), than of real defensive systems, which would be more difficult for the other political actors of the HRE to accept, perhaps trying to improve the communication routes between Italy and Germany wouldn't be a bad idea, so as to facilitate travel between the two most important regions of the Reich, surely even living a few years longer than OTL wouldn't be a bad thing
1 ) to be clear, I'm talking about the ATL Golden Bull, which in this case would be extended beyond simple Germany, so as to force the princes to have to intervene in defending the other regions of the Empire, due to their importance for the functioning of the state ( given the presence of elector princes in the area ) unlike Otl, where over the centuries, military campaigns outside Germany were considered as a matter merely of personal interest to the Emperor, rather than a state issue ( furthermore, widening the pool of voters makes it possible to vaguely feel a greater feeling of belonging to the Empire, in those "border" regions and at the same time mitigate local political aspirations, which asked for more autonomy or their involvement in government affairs ( particularly true for the Italian situation ) finally makes vain the Papal attempt at illegitimation which downgraded the sovereign to a simple Rex Teutonicum ( a little difficult to still make credible, if the future Caesar is elected by an " international " college which includes Germans, Bohemians, Italians and Burgundians ( Arelate )
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To be precise I think it is wrong to say that Frederick failed in Otl, rather it is more correct to say that he had to face a complex series of adversities, which his political opponents knew how to skilfully exploit against him, first of all, he inherited a kingdom and an Empire with enormous problems : in Sicily, you have to deal with the nobility trying to regain the previous political authority lost to the detriment of the young sovereign, and the various Saracen revolts in the hinterland ( which lasted until 1221 / 23 ) in the HRE instead you have to deal with the struggle between Guelphs and Ghibellines ( with even fighting to regain the crown Imperial taken away from his family by Otto IV, which further weakened the central government ( caused by the early death of Henry VI and the rivalry between Philip and Otto, which lasted for 17 years ) , in favor of the princes ( 1 ) in Italy he was forced to fight the Italian municipalities ( in particular the Lombard league and Milan ) as well as internal divisions among the ranks of his allies, where the ambitions of Ezzelino da Romano created numerous problems for Federico in his relationship with Azzo II d'Este ( who aspired to control Ferrara, which however had been entrusted to a loyalist of Ezzelino, and Padua itself, a city in the hands of da Romano ) and the various municipalities of the Veneto ( Venice first and foremost ) finally it must be considered that his dominions surrounded the state of the church, causing a certain fear in the papal curia ( the same thing happened following Charles V ) until he had a friendly Pope ( Innocent III, who had been his guardian and godfather ) everything went well, but when found himself with a Pontiff who was wary of him, things began to get worse ( this is also because Federico had to deal with the management of an immense state ( and with different laws, traditions and languages ) in a period in which the bureaucracy was in its embryonic state and without any relative or trusted man to help him ( unlike Charles V ), it must also not be forgotten that in this era the royal power was tangible only in the physical presence of the Monarch in a specific region, therefore we can understand that his ability to actively influencing some areas of his Empire were very limited ( which especially in Germany was noticed quite quickly ) to conclude I believe that we perceive Frederick's reign as a total failure only because his dynasty became extinct ( even if due to machinations policies ) and both Sicily and HRE went through decades of internal conflict, when in reality things were much more nuanced, and with the right changes the story would have taken a markedly different path, Furthermore, Frederick himself was responsible for some of his problems, as he wasted several opportunities to strengthen his government ( 2 )
1 ) without forgetting that the only time in which Frederick tried to implement a policy with the aim of weakening the princes, they managed to turn them against his firstborn Henrich and unleash an internal revolt, making him understand definitively that to govern in Germany it was necessary to obtain their favor ( which was also very useful for his Italian campaigns )
2 ) for example, among the various wasted opportunities, there was that Frederick, who, not taking advantage of Innocent IV's escape from Rome towards Lyon, if could easily enter the city and create his own antipope or occupy the city with the consent of the SPQR, and use the resources of the Papal State for its fight against the Lombard League or after the victory at Cortenuova ( which occurred immediately after another truly tempting opportunity to weaken municipal resistance, namely the possible capture of Brescia in 1236, which would have dangerously exposed Milan to an attack from 3 fronts, given that it would find itself surrounded by cities that were firmly pro-imperial or had just finished under the control of Frederick and his allies ) , try to obtain the coronation as King of Italy in Pavia ( which he did not have in OTL ) which would have given him a little more advantage, another wasted opportunited are a well as trying to regain the Duchy of Spoleto and the March of Ancona
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Furthermore, it should not be forgotten that other wasted opportunities were the failure to maintain control over the city of Viterbo which, despite a very strong Guelph presence, had gone over to the side of Frederick II, thanks also to the emperor's continued stay in the city ( and a accurate policy of gratification of the local population ), with the aim of using it as an intimidating weapon against Rome, in the event of a new hostile policy towards it, but which thanks to a daring maneuver by Cardinal Raniero Capocci ( important exponent in the Roman curia and became one of the most ferocious enemies of Frederick, after his alleged betrayal in the middle of the military campaign against the Roman army led by the senator Savelli ( grandson of Honorius III ) in 1234 / 5 ( 1 ), was resumed by the papal forces, with also a victory against the imperial forces that came to the rescue of the city in 1243, without forgetting that during the council of Lyon, Frederick remained undecided whether to actually march on the city to capture the pontiff or assist his sons Enzo and Riccardo who were struggling with the reformed Lombard league or even go to Germany to defeat Henrich Raspe, in the end it was forced to besiege Parma ( after a coup d'état forced the city, which was notoriously pro-imperial, to move to the Guelph camp ) for 8 months and subsequently lose the battle that took place under the walls, a fact which forced him once again to remain mired in the conflict against the Guelph cities, mainly in Emilia, while Conrad IV's position in Germany became increasingly precarious
1 ) which was not the only attempt by the imperial side to obtain the support of the pro-Swabian faction in Rome, given that in 1236 there was the failed attempt on the part by the Ghibelline exponent, Pietro Frangipane to reunite the aristocracy and the Roman people against Gregory's policies, as well as another episode in 1239, which the pontiff was able to quell with a masterstroke, using the relics of the patron saints ( Peter and Paul ) to attack the conscience of the citizens, leveraging the feeling of betrayal, which convinced the people to once again side with the Pope, rather than run the risk of turning Rome into a possible battlefield and legitimate objective of the Lombard League
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