Is there any way for Rome to survive?

[NotTheCrab]

Is there any way for western Rome to have stayed a major power all the way up to the 15th century?
I’ve hear many debates on it but they usually focus on the Byzantine empire.

 

[Qastiel]

Resisting the pedantic urge to say Rome did do exactly that in the form of the Papacy…

I think if Alaric had been handled better by the West we could’ve seen the Western Empire manage the set of crises better if with the Germanic groups continuing to be more and more influential in the West which itself would have massive consequences.

I think it’s hard to really answer this question because unless you talk about a rump Western Empire, you very quickly will get a timeline that’s completely alien from the one we know by the 15th century.

It’s a very open ended question that could maybe do with some more constrains to focus discussion?

 

[GodEmperorG]

Well any nation can survive if the odds are in their favor, just depends on how you define surviving. Like the Papacy as stated.

Majorian succeading to restore the West would give the empire at least another century or two lease on life if not more. Another option is a piece being preserved by the east under their protection, like Julius Nepos of Roman Dalmatian becoming a protectorate of the East and his descendants carving out a niche for themselves.

Technically San Marino is a surviving piece of the Western Empire that endured to the modern day. Maybe a piece of the empire survives up in the alps as a remnent?

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

For the Byzantine Empire, a good point of divergence to ensure that it survives could be to divert and ensure the Forth Crusade does not exist.

 

[GodEmperorG]

For the Byzantine Empire, a good point of divergence to ensure that it survives could be to divert and ensure the Forth Crusade does not exist.

The OP wants specifically a surviving Western Empire because there are already too many TLs where the East endures.

 

[Silver01]

Is there any way for western Rome to have stayed a major power all the way up to the 15th century?
I’ve hear many debates on it but they usually focus on the Byzantine empire.

way less butterflies if we start in say 1000 than in 395

 

[Drizzt]

Well entropy means, that any entity is fated to eventually decline and fall at some point. What IMHO would have been possible would have been for Rome to China-style fall to someone strong enough to take it over in it's entirety, rather than bits and pieces taken over by various Warlords. Once a Roman version of Lui Bang set the precedent, then once his dynasty falls as well centuries later even barbarian invaders might take over completely and go native.

 

[Nuraghe]

Well entropy means, that any entity is fated to eventually decline and fall at some point. What IMHO would have been possible would have been for Rome to China-style fall to someone strong enough to take it over in it's entirety, rather than bits and pieces taken over by various Warlords. Once a Roman version of Lui Bang set the precedent, then once his dynasty falls as well centuries later even barbarian invaders might take over completely and go native.

Well if we follow this particular line of thought, which I consider the most suitable, there are three possibilities : the Franks ( who manage to get rid of the Salic law, which clearly inspired tetrarchial government ) the Ostrogoths ( if we succeed Theodoric, we have a competent ruler who continues his foreign policy, towards the Visigoths, Vandals and the Franks ) and obviously the imperial division plan devised by Maurice for his eldest sons ( although I would prefer to add a small note to the latter, namely a much better management than Otl, of the anarchy of the Lombards / government of the dukes, which goes from 574 to 584, in particular the campaign of Baduario, and possibly put the Sicilian and Sardinian resources back under the management of the Italian province, which in Otl were governed separately from the rest of the peninsula )

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

The dissolution of the Western Roman Empire was a perfect storm of bad leadership, climate change, internal instability, and migrations. Remove any two or more of those and the WRE can at least make it through late antiquity. Having the Goths be defeated at Adrianople in 378 removes Honorius and Arcadia, as well as the internal gothic migrations. Avoid any of the civil wars, especially around 406/407, and the imperial army would be much more able to contain the migrations over the Rhine. Heck, even Majorian succeeding in taking Africa from the Vandals would probably give the empire enough juice to make it through the migration period. If Julius Nepos stayed in power the WRE could survive in Italy. If the reconquest of North Africa in 468 succeeded you probably get a WRE with similar borders to the 3rd Punic War.

 

[Maeglin]

Does wanking Justinian's Reconquest (via hamstringing Persia and handwaving the plague) count?

 

[Silver01]

The dissolution of the Western Roman Empire was a perfect storm of bad leadership, climate change, internal instability, and migrations. Remove any two or more of those and the WRE can at least make it through late antiquity. Having the Goths be defeated at Adrianople in 378 removes Honorius and Arcadia, as well as the internal gothic migrations. Avoid any of the civil wars, especially around 406/407, and the imperial army would be much more able to contain the migrations over the Rhine. Heck, even Majorian succeeding in taking Africa from the Vandals would probably give the empire enough juice to make it through the migration period. If Julius Nepos stayed in power the WRE could survive in Italy. If the reconquest of North Africa in 468 succeeded you probably get a WRE with similar borders to the 3rd Punic War.

I would agree but on its well complete form i still think even with an early pod the isles are going to get abandoned the later the pod i can still see spain and gaul be taken the wre survives as mainly italy and north africa.

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

I would agree but on its well complete form i still think even with an early pod the isles are going to get abandoned the later the pod i can still see spain and gaul be taken the wre survives as mainly italy and north africa.

Brittania may or may not be abandoned at some point. With a 378 PoD it might be avoided. With a PoD around the crossing of the Rhine in 406/407 they probably still pull out. Obviously with a Majorian PoD Brittania has been gone for a few decades. I think with a Majorian PoD Spain and Gaul can be held.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Assyrian style assimilation strategy for the Germanic tribes (defeat them in battle, split them up and spread them out across the empire so they lose their identity and your population goes up)?

 

[Silver01]

. I think with a Majorian PoD Spain and Gaul can be held.

Spain yeah gual I don't know I think we talked about this earlier how majorian position is still lot the best even if he won against Africa but yeah during his life I think Gual can be held his successors don't have to screw up or worse get in to a war with the east

 

[Nuraghe]

Resisting the pedantic urge to say Rome did do exactly that in the form of the Papacy…

I think if Alaric had been handled better by the West we could’ve seen the Western Empire manage the set of crises better if with the Germanic groups continuing to be more and more influential in the West which itself would have massive consequences.

I think it’s hard to really answer this question because unless you talk about a rump Western Empire, you very quickly will get a timeline that’s completely alien from the one we know by the 15th century.

It’s a very open ended question that could maybe do with some more constrains to focus discussion?

now putting it on the joke (but not too much) actually if a person goes to notice how many of the traditions and rituals have survived from the imperial period up to the medieval Rome of the Popes, he realizes that some modifications due to the time that has passed, for the the rest of the mechanisms of Roman power remained almost completely unchanged

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

Does wanking Justinian's Reconquest (via hamstringing Persia and handwaving the plague) count?

I am not sure about it, it could be possible but given how much resources it devoured due to Justianian’s obsession with conquering former territory of the Roman Empire, it is very low.

 

[Michael B]

Assyrian style assimilation strategy for the Germanic tribes (defeat them in battle, split them up and spread them out across the empire so they lose their identity and your population goes up)?

Highly unlikely, Whilst the Franks were able to defeat and assimilate other Germanic tribes the Romans were unable to. Paradoxially the Franks were also able to assimilate Romans to create a literate class in their empire.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Assyrian style assimilation strategy for the Germanic tribes (defeat them in battle, split them up and spread them out across the empire so they lose their identity and your population goes up)?

The Romans did that IOTL; the problem was that, by the fifth century, they were no longer strong enough to do this.

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

In what way is the Papacy a continuation of the Roman Empire?

 

[RousseauX]

I would agree but on its well complete form i still think even with an early pod the isles are going to get abandoned the later the pod i can still see spain and gaul be taken the wre survives as mainly italy and north africa.

that might very well have happened if the combined east-west expedition in 458 had succeeded in reconquering north africa

Italy/North Africa formed a fairly stable axis the western empire could have survived in