Germany goes with hybrid carries after the Panzerschiffe

tomo pauk

Basically, instead of the Twins, B & T, and the stillborn GZ, Kriegsmarine opts for hybrid carriers. Layout allowing for the two front turrets (28 cm for the Twins, 38cm for the later 2-3 ships), flight deck taking about 60% of the ship's length (ie. a greater % than what the Japanese did), the bridge being offset to the right so there is a greater elbow room for operating the aircraft. Catapult, or, preferably, two per ship? Anti-aircraft guns where it is suitable to install them.
Aircraft carriers perhaps 20-25 on the alt-Twins, 30-35 on the bigger ships?

Main job of the air component being recon, destroying of enemy recon aircraft, and extended air defense. Half of the aircraft carriers being fighters, and no floatplanes carried? Dive bombers as the offensive part; no torpedo bombers.

Any takers?
 

seraphim74

Utility of such ships is highly doubtful. They would suck both as battleships and as carriers. They would carry less planes than a typical carrier of their size - the Bismarck was more or less as long as the Ark Royal, and the British ship had an airwing of over 50 planes. It would be enough to neutralize all 20 German fighters and still have enough bombers or torpedo planes for an attack.
Their armour would be weaker than a regular battleship, I think, with a large, flat desk being a perfect target for both artillery and bombers. The ships would also have a lot of large empty space of hangars for planes. It means they would be of bigger volume which would require additional armour. Heavy armour everywhere means more costs and most probably lower maximal speed and maneuverability.
The German ships would need to carry both ammunition for their heavy cannons and fuel for their planes - it would take a lot of space, possibly limiting range of the ship.
German airwing would be mostly defensive, and it means it is almost useless against enemy ships. Not to mention a small matter of having time to launch the planes and later allowing them to land, if a battle last too lo g. The German cannons are weaker than cannons of a modern British battleship. In direct confrontation the British battleship would have advantage in firepower, armour and probably maneuverability. Even a British heavy cruiser, like HMS Dorsetshire, would be a dangerous adversary for German hybrid carrier, with British ship being most likely faster, more agile and able to use both its cannons and torpedoes.
In short IMO hybrid carriers would combine not strengths of a carrier and battleship, but their weaknesses.
 

Sekhmet_D

Kicked
Didn't work for the Japanese with Ise and Hyuga, and the Japanese had way more experience with naval aviation. No reason to believe why a German equivalent would be any better.
 

tomo pauk

Now about the advantages.
Having an integral air wing means that land-based LR recons (like Hudson or Anson) and the flying boats (like Catalina or Sunderland) British will use to find out the German ships can be dealt. Own recons can be used in order to provide data on enemy ships movement, location, number and approximate strength. British carrier-based fighters were under-performers for the 1st ~20 months of the war, so it is not a given that KM fighters will be trashed. The 28 cm, let alone the 38cm guns will give the pause to the RN cruisers, and any merchant ship is still a fair game.

There is no requirement that flying deck is to be armored - not sure when that idea surfaced.

As before, trying to go against the RN heavyweights is not advised unless/until a good advantage is secured beforehand, like having the RN ships being well damaged.
 

tomo pauk

Sekhmet_D said:
Didn't work for the Japanese with Ise and Hyuga, and the Japanese had way more experience with naval aviation. No reason to believe why a German equivalent would be any better.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to put the hybrids against the teeth of the USN in 1944, but to sail instead of the KM heavy ships in 1939-41.
 

Caledon

Like the OTL Kriegsmarine's capital ships, they will probably have short careers, marked by a handful of notable battles. It's hard to guess when and where those battles might happen, since Britain will certainly react to these ships and do things differently than OTL. But looking at a couple of the S&G's battles:

Operation Weserubung: after escorting a landing force to Trondheim, the S&G sailed into the North Sea, encountered the Renown in rough seas, fought an inconclusive battle and withdrew. If these hybrid carriers carried out the same mission, I'm guessing they'd have a hard time getting planes in the air because of the weather. So they would end up in a gunfight with smaller guns than they had in OTL. Or maybe they do manage to have some scouts in the air and see the British Battlecruiser in time to run away and not fight

Operation Juno: OTL, HMS Glorious got caught unprepared and sunk by the S&G. The hybrids could likely do the same, assuming Glorious was in the same place/time and similarly unready. On the other hand, maybe the presence of the German carriers would mean Glorious was denied permission to sail alone, so she's in a convoy with Ark Royal, and a CAP. Depending on the luck of the day, I expect that fight could go either way.

They might well be sent out commerce raiding, like the Graf Spee. And could possibly be pretty successful at it. But would eventually run into the same situation - far from home, overdue for maintenance, with half the RN out hunting them.

Or they could get caught and sunk while trying to break into the Atlantic like the Bismarck, or spend most of their careers hiding in the fjords like the Tirpitz.

So, the details might differ, and might be quite interesting, but it seems unlikely they would make a meaningful difference in how the KM fares against the RN.
 

Dorknought

Tirpitz only had to sail for the RN to break up PQ-17. Surface ships of any type will only achieve disruption of GB supplies by providing the multi dimensional threat of combined surface air and subsurface threat. Let the U-boats intercept the independent sailings and let the aircraft find them. The hybrids can lurk around with the tankers.
 

CaptainCalvert

I can more easily see someone deciding on a hybrid (battle)cruiser carrier than a full on battleship/carrier hybrid, but it's still hard to see them being any more successful than OTL ships [1].
The biggest barrier would be getting the Luftwaffe to allow the KM to have control of its aircraft. That could be overcome by making tbe carriers part of the Luftwaffe, which would then create a whole new load of fun coordinating with the rest of the KM , but which might look acceptable if they were viewed as a kind of independent raider.
This might actually make a bit of sense at the time if the 'cruisers' are started openly, built more or less half way, then decked over at the last minute. Meanwhile, the Luftwaffe is busy training up pilots on land with mock carrier decks and the odd floating landing stage in a lake [2].

I'm reasonably confident they'd be somewhere between a disappointment and a disaster, but it would be interesting to consider how the British would react when they found out, and how OTL events might have been changed by their presence in place of a Graf Spee or Prinz Eugen.

[1] which of course won't be a consideration in the 1930s when they are being designed and built.
[2] which will add a whole load of fun for the pilots when it's time to take off or land for real in an Atlantic swell.
 

Vabasion

Well at this point why not convert Hannover, Schleswig-Holstein and Schlesien into pre dread carriers as well?

Hybrid carriers are horrible. You either commit to the carrier or you don’t build them. Graf Zeppelin was a terrible design because they tried to make it a carrier capable of fighting with cruisers at gun range. Fundamental issue of German leadership is their misunderstanding of what carriers are meant to do and that if a carrier is tangling with a surface ship with its guns something has gone horribly wrong already.

But for sake of topic, they have way less aircraft than similar carrier would, the deck is way shorter limiting them to using assisted takeoff or lighter planes, recovery is harder as well requiring more optimal conditions which are almost never going to happen in the North Atlantic. And number of capital size guns is inadequate to actually fight something worth those guns.
 

Jacarí

tomo pauk said:
Basically, instead of the Twins, B & T, and the stillborn GZ, Kriegsmarine opts for hybrid carriers. Layout allowing for the two front turrets (28 cm for the Twins, 38cm for the later 2-3 ships), flight deck taking about 60% of the ship's length (ie. a greater % than what the Japanese did), the bridge being offset to the right so there is a greater elbow room for operating the aircraft. Catapult, or, preferably, two per ship? Anti-aircraft guns where it is suitable to install them.
Aircraft carriers perhaps 20-25 on the alt-Twins, 30-35 on the bigger ships?

Main job of the air component being recon, destroying of enemy recon aircraft, and extended air defense. Half of the aircraft carriers being fighters, and no floatplanes carried? Dive bombers as the offensive part; no torpedo bombers.

Any takers?
Click to expand...

I would keep the twins, make another pair even, and the 4xGZ for a buddy system.

Turn the Hippers into hybrids with 2x3x15cm, the USN designed a 10.000t one with 24 aircraft, good enough for me. They can scout for and search shipping until the free for all is declared.

If one gets sunk, it is not much of a loss.

I would suggest always asking the British about naval matters... the actual British officers of the time, not the forum kind. ;)

"...the Director of Naval Construction's department apparently did prepare a sketch design for a cruiser-carrier in 1933, although no details of it have survived. It was
rejected by the board, at least in part because of the fear that other nations would follow suit. The hybrid would not only make an effective trade protection vessel, but, as Chatfield had mentioned, a good commerce raider as well, and the Admiralty did not want to give anyone ideas along that line."

A hybrid is both a bad warship and the best commerce raider.

But they do look good, very steampunky:

Flugdeckkreuzer.gif
 
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Jacarí

CaptainCalvert said:
He51 would work better [1] along with Hs123 as the strike aircraft.

[1] Better, in that it could take off and land more than once. And not that bad vs a sea Gladiator or Roc when it was in the air.
Click to expand...

The Germans had already developed a carrier fighter, no need to improvise one, same for the Hs 123

ar197-7.jpg
 

Michael B

CaptainCalvert said:
He51 would work better [1] along with Hs123 as the strike aircraft.

[1] Better, in that it could take off and land more than once. And not that bad vs a sea Gladiator or Roc when it was in the air.
Click to expand...
Almost any contemporarary plane would be better than a Roc. However, if the hybrids are still around in 1941 their planes are going to have to take on Martlet Mk IIs.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
Vabasion said:
Well at this point why not convert Hannover, Schleswig-Holstein and Schlesien into pre dread carriers as well?

Hybrid carriers are horrible. You either commit to the carrier or you don’t build them. Graf Zeppelin was a terrible design because they tried to make it a carrier capable of fighting with cruisers at gun range. Fundamental issue of German leadership is their misunderstanding of what carriers are meant to do and that if a carrier is tangling with a surface ship with its guns something has gone horribly wrong already.

But for sake of topic, they have way less aircraft than similar carrier would, the deck is way shorter limiting them to using assisted takeoff or lighter planes, recovery is harder as well requiring more optimal conditions which are almost never going to happen in the North Atlantic. And number of capital size guns is inadequate to actually fight something worth those guns.
Click to expand...
Underwater protection was... risible at best. Removal of barbettes down to the keel - would be quicker & possibly less expensive to build your CVL from scratch.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
If these hybrids were to be a focal point of the KM, might the planes get more consideration and budget than the lashups for the GZ? I'm also assuming no GZ.
 
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