Is there any possible way for Greece to gain the following territories in 20th century (earlier if not possible in the 20th century) as part of the country of Greece?: Modern Day Greece, Cyprus, Crete, All Islands in the Aegan, North Epirus, Eastern Thrace, Gallipoli Peninsula and the Queen Of Cities Itself, Constantinople? I don't mind the answer with a little bit of ASB, as long as it isn't completely stupid.
Greece gaining the following territories
- Thread starter Tongera
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The Megali Idea - which was the driving force behind a lot of Greek politics before 1920 - dictated that Greece obtain all the territories you specified plus a good bit of western Anatolia.
It's easy to make this happen, too. Just have Attaturk die and the Turkish independence movement fall flat on its face. Without the massive population exchanges, there will be enough of a Greek population in the new territories to justify holding them.
It's easy to make this happen, too. Just have Attaturk die and the Turkish independence movement fall flat on its face. Without the massive population exchanges, there will be enough of a Greek population in the new territories to justify holding them.
If the Turkish Independence War goes badly, Greece could well achieve the Megali Idea, and perhaps a bit more. It would, of course, end up very badly for the Turkish population, as a matter of fact, in the coastal regions and Turkish Europe, I don't see the Greek minority remaining a minority.
Hm. Interesting question I just thought of. With Constantinople and a good chunk of Anatolia in Greece's hands, would some savvy politician get it into their heads to redeclare the Eastern Roman Empire for prestige reasons? That was, after all, the main focus behind the Megali Idea, and I can see historically aware, romanticist Europe happily embracing the new Empire.
Nietzsche
Banned
You've just made Greeks the minority in their own state. Without ethnic cleansing on a scale that would make Hitler blush, this 'Greece' is just Turkey with a different flag. And that's the best outcome. The most likely outcome is Greece being torn apart by the revolting Turks & Muslims.
And since the Greek government is going so spectacularly bankrupt and probably can't sustain a long war, the revolt would probably succeed. Heck, the Greeks are getting turbulent as it is, so add this complicating factor and violence seems like a certainty.
Nietzsche
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"Probably" my white ass. It's going to succeed. The Greek army doesn't have enough guns or men to put down said revolt. You'd need an act of god, and even then it'd be a toss up.
The Megali idea was madness (I'm surprised that Trabzon and the Black seacoast is not included, btw): there is no way that Greece can win a protracted war with Turkey (not even a Turkey coming out of WW1 defeat).
This does not even starts to address how Greece coud recover Rhodes from Italy or Cyprus from UK.
Let's make a lil excursion in ASB land and assume that Greece grabs Izmir and the hinterland. What after that? are they going to set up a fortified line to keep the Turks out? How long can Greece afford to keep a standing army in Anatolia? what about the Turks living in the area? would they be expelled?
It looks like that they are setting up the conditions for a Turkish liberation war somewhen in the late twenties, which this time might not just be limited to reclaiming Izmir and the coastland: the new border, when the dust settles, might be west of Thessaloniki.
If in the meantime they manage to piss off the Italians too, also Corfu is likely to be lost (and maybe Bulgaria too would like to come to the party)
This does not even starts to address how Greece coud recover Rhodes from Italy or Cyprus from UK.
Let's make a lil excursion in ASB land and assume that Greece grabs Izmir and the hinterland. What after that? are they going to set up a fortified line to keep the Turks out? How long can Greece afford to keep a standing army in Anatolia? what about the Turks living in the area? would they be expelled?
It looks like that they are setting up the conditions for a Turkish liberation war somewhen in the late twenties, which this time might not just be limited to reclaiming Izmir and the coastland: the new border, when the dust settles, might be west of Thessaloniki.
If in the meantime they manage to piss off the Italians too, also Corfu is likely to be lost (and maybe Bulgaria too would like to come to the party)
yourworstnightmare
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Cyprus: Might be possible, but need a much weaker Turkey. Greece and Turkey splitting Cyprus between them is more plausible.
Aegean Islands: Imbros and Tenedos would be hard to pull off. Needed by Turkey for strategical reasons.
North Epirus: For this we need Albania not to form, perhaps Greece and Serbia split the territory between them.
Eastern Thrace: All Eastern Thrace is impossible, but with a little luck Greece could probably get parts of it after the Greco- Turkish war if things had gone a little different.
Gallipoli: A part of Eastern Thrace they wouldn't get. Has a huge strategical importance for Turkey and they wouldn't give it up.
Constantinople: No chance in hell.
Aegean Islands: Imbros and Tenedos would be hard to pull off. Needed by Turkey for strategical reasons.
North Epirus: For this we need Albania not to form, perhaps Greece and Serbia split the territory between them.
Eastern Thrace: All Eastern Thrace is impossible, but with a little luck Greece could probably get parts of it after the Greco- Turkish war if things had gone a little different.
Gallipoli: A part of Eastern Thrace they wouldn't get. Has a huge strategical importance for Turkey and they wouldn't give it up.
Constantinople: No chance in hell.
Well, it can be done what is need is:
- A more violent March of Rome, basically the King call Mussolini Bluff and sent the army to arrest him; this lead to a more confused political situation with a lot of violence between socialist, fascist and the goverment, so Italy is occupied with internal matter
- some crisis who occupy the attention of London ( maybe a communist Russia is more succesfull in Poland or the communist regime in Hungary survive, more delicate internal situation etc. etc)
- Ataturk die in WWI
- Violent popular uprising in Cyprus
- Lot of ethnic cleasing done by Greece
With this and some luck there is a good change that the OP can be achievied...for three or four months, later Greece due to ecomic exaustation, scarcity of men and resource for the army, overextension and some very pissed off power (expecially Italy) is in trouble, big big trouble
- A more violent March of Rome, basically the King call Mussolini Bluff and sent the army to arrest him; this lead to a more confused political situation with a lot of violence between socialist, fascist and the goverment, so Italy is occupied with internal matter
- some crisis who occupy the attention of London ( maybe a communist Russia is more succesfull in Poland or the communist regime in Hungary survive, more delicate internal situation etc. etc)
- Ataturk die in WWI
- Violent popular uprising in Cyprus
- Lot of ethnic cleasing done by Greece
With this and some luck there is a good change that the OP can be achievied...for three or four months, later Greece due to ecomic exaustation, scarcity of men and resource for the army, overextension and some very pissed off power (expecially Italy) is in trouble, big big trouble
That's essentially ASB.
Prior to the Cyprus Crisis and partititon into tow, the island was not ethnically divided, rather Greek-Cypriots and Turko-Cypriots both lived throughout both parts.
Dementor
Banned
Before the First World War Istanbul had 840 thousand inhabitants, of whom a third were Greeks and Armenians, while Eastern Thrace had 600 thousand inhabitants, of whom 40% were Greeks and Armenians. This is according to Ottoman sources, by the way - alternate estimate give a higher proportion of the Greek population. So with between 400 and 600 thousand Muslims on the territory of today's Greece out of a total population of about five million, that makes at most 1.5 million out of a total of 6.5 million. This is manageable, especially if there is a population exchange as in OTL (which exchange would still involve nearly as many Greeks as Turks).
Why? After the end of WWI, Istanbul had no Ottoman forces and with total Greek superiority at sea, they could easily capture the city and hold it. This would of course require the Entente occupation force to agree to let them take over.
Try a POD before 1900 if it can't be done after 1900. Also couldn't a population exchange take place once the territories are grabbed, like the one in the 1920's? Maybe if Greece didn't get greedy in the Greco-Turkish War, and only tried to grab the European part of the Ottoman Empire, it could be done.
Dementor
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There is actually a timeline on the subject, here. Though the Greek-Turkish war happens as in OTL, the Lausanne negotiations fall through and war breaks out again. With only about 35 thousand Turkish troops and total Greek naval superiority there is little that can be done to prevent a Greek occupation of Eastern Thrace and Constantinople. This scenario seems quite reasonable, even if one allows for the biases of the author.
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