Challenge: Most likely map after Napoleonic Victory

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Ok, so after seeing the recent spike in Napoleonic-era WIs/TLs, as well as this thread(https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=73231)...

What do you all think is the most likely map in the case of a Naploeonic victory? Now, I don't want to set any crucial limits, but I have only two rules for the maps:

1) Maps cannot be complete wank, where the Napoleonic Empire annexes all of the British Empire, and control Everything...

and

2) The British Empire and the French Empire must have been on opposite sides of the war...

Go nuts!
 
I suppose I'll post my first idea of a post-Napoleonic victory Europe again. :p The black borders are of the Confederation of the Rhine

AlernateNapoleonicEurope.jpg


1. Batavian Republic
2. Kingdom of Westphalia
3. Grand Duchy of Hesse
4. Kingdom of Saxony
5. Grand Duchy of Baden-Wurtemburg
6. Kingdom of Bavaria
7. Helvetic Republic
8. Kingdom of Italy
9. Republic of Illyria
10. Montenegro
11. Serbia
12. Wallachia
13. Moldavia
14. Free City of Danzig
 

Thande

Donor
I think it's basically just a map of 1812 OTL but with a repuppetised Spain.

I suppose a bigger Napoleonic victory might have Prussia abolished, carved up and shoved into the Rhine Confederation, and Portugal under a Marshal, but otherwise that's about it.
 
Why are the Nazi maps so much more creative?

Come on people, think! I like both maps so far (although Zach, your neutral Switzerland still makes no sense:p), but let's get original. I'd post a map, but the site hates my computer...and Paint.

What if Napoleon had been (more) successful against Russia? What if he'd gone south, after the Ottomans? All valid questions my friends...
 
Originally posted by wilcoxchar
I suppose I'll post my first idea of a post-Napoleonic victory Europe again. The black borders are of the Confederation of the Rhine

Regarding the map.
I think you forgetting Poland (or Duchy of Warsaw or whatever it might have been called). Napoleon created the Grand Duchy of Warsaw in 1806 gaining loyal ally to keep an eye on Prussia, Russia and Austria. Of course Poles couldn't beat any of those countries by themselves, but if any of them wanted to fight France, it had to rememeber about quite good and decisively pro-French army right on their footstep. When Austrians fought France in 1809, they had to send a corps against Duchy of Warsaw. The campaign in Poland finished rather badly for Austria - while Poles didn't exactly defeated Austrians in big, open battle, they succesfully outmanouvered them, conquering (or liberating, from Polish POV) a big part of territory occupied by Austria during partitions. In this way Poles proved a very useful ally and they were rewarded with more territory.
In short, Poland was to be a French watchdog in the east. That is why I believe Napoleon would have insisted on creating relatively strong and independent (but loyal to France) Poland. Of course I don't know how you imagined Napoleon's victory creating the map, but I think Poland sould be there.
 
I think my TL gave pretty standard borders:

I believe that such France is inherently unstable. There are too many minorities inside the border, especially German/Dutch minorities. Too many at least to assimilate for the French. Certainly with a budding Geram state next door, I suspect that this France will brake up, unless some way can be found to bind these people to France without assimilating them into France.
 
I believe that such France is inherently unstable. There are too many minorities inside the border, especially German/Dutch minorities. Too many at least to assimilate for the French. Certainly with a budding Geram state next door, I suspect that this France will brake up, unless some way can be found to bind these people to France without assimilating them into France.
Well France historically had a lot of populations that we might consider minorities: Italians, Germans that with time became "French" later, Basques that did not cause problems historically for France and ofcourse the most important minority that is French now... the Bretons (all situated on the borders of France). I see French culture as being able to absorb a lot of populations... and it did in OTL. A France with so many minorities might be less stable but in 1815 assimilation of other populations was certainly possible.
 
seraphim74 said:
Regarding the map.
I think you forgetting Poland (or Duchy of Warsaw or whatever it might have been called). Napoleon created the Grand Duchy of Warsaw in 1806 gaining loyal ally to keep an eye on Prussia, Russia and Austria. Of course Poles couldn't beat any of those countries by themselves, but if any of them wanted to fight France, it had to rememeber about quite good and decisively pro-French army right on their footstep. When Austrians fought France in 1809, they had to send a corps against Duchy of Warsaw. The campaign in Poland finished rather badly for Austria - while Poles didn't exactly defeated Austrians in big, open battle, they succesfully outmanouvered them, conquering (or liberating, from Polish POV) a big part of territory occupied by Austria during partitions. In this way Poles proved a very useful ally and they were rewarded with more territory.
In short, Poland was to be a French watchdog in the east. That is why I believe Napoleon would have insisted on creating relatively strong and independent (but loyal to France) Poland. Of course I don't know how you imagined Napoleon's victory creating the map, but I think Poland sould be there.
My idea for the map isn't just that Napoleon wins more of his battles, is completely victorious, etc. The idea is that Napoleon is more sensible and rational in his decisions. Basically, no randomly betraying and invading Spain, (maybe) no putting relatives on thrones, and making the Continental System work well and still be beneficial. One of the main problems with the Continental System was that all money from tariffs between countries went to France. If he had allowed the tariffs to go to their respective countries, many countries would be more receptive to staying neutral or closer to France. Also, in OTL tsar Alexander I was personal friends with Napoleon, but under pressure from the nobility, left the Continental System and declared war on France in (I think) 1809. ITTL, Alexander stays friends with Napoleon and Russia has better relations with France. As a result of all this, there is no need for a watchdog in the east, and with Russia closer to France, Danzig is protected from Prussia in both the west (Denmark) and the east (Russia).
 
Can someone please explain to me why Portugal is often split in these timelines? Was there really any justification for it? The French Empire itself would have the Benelux, Catalonia and Illyria (Venetia) because Napoleon approved of annexing all of them in OTL (Napoleon fell before Catalonia was fully annexed). It would make sense then that North Italy would also be absorbed to keep the Empire contiguous. Sardinia might be absorbed also. The Duchy of Warsaw would definitely exist-being the one nation that actually liked France at the time. Spain would become a puppet state afterwords (maybe fully absorbed in a hundred years...?). Russia and Portugal are harder to place. Unless France succeeds in building its massive naval fleet (AND wins Trafalgar AND invades Britain) Britain and Ireland should be left alone (this is also not the most likely scenario-nearly all Napoleonic timelines acknowledge that Britain isn't going to change). You have the Confederation of the Rhine, but I don't know how long that will last. The Germanies are up in the air. I see the Helvetic Republic reverting back to Switzerland quickly, and Napoleon will have to choose whether to keep it a puppet or let it become a harmless neutral state.

This is rather difficult without a POD. How and where Napoleon is successful will determine a lot. If the Iberian campaign is successful for him, Portugal would probably become a puppet state. If it isn't, then Portugal would probably (at least partially) be outside of French control.
 
papermario said:
Can someone please explain to me why Portugal is often split in these timelines? Was there really any justification for it?

Before the Peninsula War, the French and the Spanish had signed a secret treaty in which a partition of Portugal had been prepared. Had it been realised, Portugal would have been split into three states : a kingdom of Northern Lusitania under the former Grand Duke of Tuscany (or the Duke of Parma, I can't remember), a kingdom of the Algarves ruled by Manuel Godoy and a rump Portuguese Kingdom.

The partition can end up differently because of different means of course.

Well, here is what I think could be a map of a post-Napoleonic Victory world. I'm currently trying to write a timeline that goes with the map but I can't seem to find time and motivation to write it.

napoleonicvictoryworld.png
 
Before the Peninsula War, the French and the Spanish had signed a secret treaty in which a partition of Portugal had been prepared. Had it been realised, Portugal would have been split into three states : a kingdom of Northern Lusitania under the former Grand Duke of Tuscany (or the Duke of Parma, I can't remember), a kingdom of the Algarves ruled by Manuel Godoy and a rump Portuguese Kingdom.

The partition can end up differently because of different means of course.

Well, here is what I think could be a map of a post-Napoleonic Victory world. I'm currently trying to write a timeline that goes with the map but I can't seem to find time and motivation to write it.

napoleonicvictoryworld.png


Thanks for the info. Your map's good, but France should have Illyria. Is Lousiana and the Ohio River Valley supposed to be under American control? The coloring's confusing me-Canada and Britain are the same color, but America and what it should have are two different ones. Just checking.
 
Thanks for the info. Your map's good, but France should have Illyria. Is Lousiana and the Ohio River Valley supposed to be under American control? The coloring's confusing me-Canada and Britain are the same color, but America and what it should have are two different ones. Just checking.

I think it's because Louisiana is a territory rather than a state. Good map btw
 
This is an idea in which Napoleon is somewhat more successful in Russia, though continues to run into trouble in Spain though out his reign and never successfully overruns Portugal. Although he successfully stays in power.
At Napoleon's death no one shouts "Napoleon is dead! Long Live Napoleon II!" France goes through some trouble and triggers a 'spring of nations of steroids'. France becomes a republic for a little while. But the Bonapartes will regain power. In this timeCatalonia, Italy, and the Dutch & German provinces of France achieve independence from France as does Hungary from the Hapsburgs.
Italy grows.
Germany unifies as a loose Federation under Austria.
Prussia and Poland fight (several times).
Russia goes through some hard times in the 1800s. Sweden and Poland take advantage of this as do the Ottomans. In the long run things don't turn out that bad for Russia. Thus we get that Bulgarian and Greek wanks (inspired by Zach's Velikslavia though the Balkans are still the Balkans and they don't stay together) as well as the borders in the Caucasus.
At some point Croatia gets its independence from Hungary.

Africa I left blank but France does pretty good across North Africa.

Europa.png
 
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This is an idea in which Napoleon is somewhat more successful in Russia, though continues to run into trouble in Spain though out his reign and never successfully overruns Portugal. Although he successfully stays in power.
At Napoleon's death no one shouts "Napoleon is dead! Long Live Napoleon II!" France goes through some trouble and triggers a 'spring of nations of steroids'. France becomes a republic for a little while. But the Bonapartes will regain power. In this timeCatalonia, Italy, and the Dutch & German provinces of France achieve independence from France as does Hungary from the Hapsburgs.
Italy grows.
Germany unifies as a loose Federation under Austria.
Prussia and Poland fight (several times).
Russia goes through some hard times in the 1800s. Sweden and Poland take advantage of this as do the Ottomans. In the long run things don't turn out that bad for Russia. Thus we get that Bulgarian and Greek wanks (inspired by Zach's Velikslavia though the Balkans are still the Balkans and they don't stay together) as well as the borders in the Caucasus.
At some point Croatia gets its independence from Hungary.

Africa I left blank but France does pretty good across North Africa.

Interesting.

However, the only way you can have 'Letonia' appear is a massive Spanish invasion into the region, which is, ermm, not very feasible (although it would be fun). As a Swedish client state (which I presume it is) it would be called 'Livland' in Swedish and German languages, and 'Livonia' in other languages.
 
papermario said:
Thanks for the info. Your map's good, but France should have Illyria. Is Lousiana and the Ohio River Valley supposed to be under American control? The coloring's confusing me-Canada and Britain are the same color, but America and what it should have are two different ones. Just checking.

Saepe Fidelis said:
I think it's because Louisiana is a territory rather than a state. Good map btw

Regarding Illyria, it is supposed that Napoleon could have given the Illyrian provinces to Italy after his death. That seemed logical to me as the Illyrian provinces would thus be much easier to handle. This is why I had France giving them to Italy. In exchange, I gave France some lands so that the Papal States (who are under French control) became linked to the Empire with a direct land connection, not one under the control of a puppet state.

As for Ohio and Louisiana, Saepe Fidelis is right : they are just territory for now, not states of the US.

I appreciate the comments on my map, but to be frank I didn't do much. I just used a model map of 1812 that was posted in "Alternate History Books and Media" (Can't remember the name of the thread) and modified it.

The error on Canada is probably because I don't make maps very often and therefore don't really know the UCS.
 
Interesting.

However, the only way you can have 'Letonia' appear is a massive Spanish invasion into the region, which is, ermm, not very feasible (although it would be fun). As a Swedish client state (which I presume it is) it would be called 'Livland' in Swedish and German languages, and 'Livonia' in other languages.

Damn, can't believe I made that mistake. Anyway it is fixed now and I also changes Portugal a bit and since this is a Napoleonic victory, well things should not go to well for the UK either.
 
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